[ifsteve]

I know the conventional wisdom for a 24v TM system is two batteries for that and a separate battery for cranking.

But given the new jump start batteries that are so small and inexpensive wondering if anybody has gone to just two batteries for the TM with one of them also used for cranking the outboard. Then carrying the Li jump start battery in the event of running down the TM batteries to far.

 

[prinjm6]

Dont do it, you will want to the Odyssey PC1200 is negligible weight if youre going to carry a jump pack anyway.

I'm waiting on an established company to launch Li batteries before I spend $ on one of the many Li battery companies that have popped up overnight. I know for a fact anyone can contact the Li battery manufacturer, create a label and have a Li battery company. The few friends I know that have Li have had issues and ended up with dead batteries when it mattered most due to charging issues.

One has to question why Odyssey, Northstar etc. Hasnt launch Li batteries yet to take their share of that market. I know interstate, deka, Barracuda, Trojan etc are all from the same manufacturing plant but not sure about where the rest are made and havent cared enough to find out.

The upside to lithium is great as long as it works as advertised which hasnt been 100% proven yet except weight. Going lithium is a less expensive way to eliminate weight in a skiff than going with lighter laminate schedule using Carbon, Aramid or that crap innegra.

 

[Vertigo]

I've got one of the jump starters and have used it a few times to start a generator. I also carried it, but had no occasion to use it on a boat I had rigged just as you describe. I never ran the TM batteries down so far as to need a jump start, but I had confidence it would work. I say go for it!

 

[ifsteve]

1. Lithium Pro is a top notch company and tons of guys on the bass master circuit are using there batteries.

2. I have a jump start battery and have used it twice to start an outboard. Neither were mine just guys at the ramp that had dead batteries. It started a guys 250 so pretty sure it would start any motor on a skiff.

 

[prinjm6]

1. Lithium Pro is a top notch company and tons of guys on the bass master circuit are using there batteries.

2. I have a jump start battery and have used it twice to start an outboard. Neither were mine just guys at the ramp that had dead batteries. It started a guys 250 so pretty sure it would start any motor on a skiff.

I'm not saying it wont start your battery, what I'm saying is if you are running a 24v TM setup and using one of the batteries to start your Outboard and in the case the batteries get run down to low you carry a jump pack. The jump pack has to weigh something, why not just have a dedicated house battery then? The weight is negligible.

Also Bass guys are paid to run the equipment they do, you wont hear them say anything negative. Rick Morris is a friend of mine, I have a little insight into why he has not left Northstar....

 

[Smackdaddy53]

A couple of guide buddies just got rid of their lithium batteries and went back to wet cell Interstates because of charging issues.

 

[Capnredfish]

Were these starting or used for trolling?

 

[prinjm6]

A couple of guide buddies just got rid of their lithium batteries and went back to wet cell Interstates because of charging issues.

The 3 people I personally know who use them have had issues and have let them down on the day it mattered, tournament day. To say the Bass pros use them is being Jaded, those guy HAVE to get over $100k/yr in sponsorship dollars to travel and fish the tour. Paul Elias as irrelevant as he has been of late gets anywhere between $140-160k/yr in sponsorship dollars, he has to pay the mortgage and truck payment somehow cuz he ain't winning.

I could own a lithium battery company tomorrow with $160 to Sunbiz and hooked up with the Li manufacturer. Lithium Pro's, Lithium battery power and all others get their product from the same place.

Steve I am just trying to give you sound advice on how you rig your new skiff man, dont take what I say personally. You asked a question and I'm just answering.

 

[ifsteve]

My Micro jump start battery weighs 2#. An Odyssey 1200 weighs 36# and the 1500 over 50#.

There are Li ion batteries and there are Li ion batteries. The problem is that most of them are not that good of quality. The really good ones are very pricey but like they say "you get what you pay for." IF I go this way I will be using Lithium Pros.

Now here is the rest of the story to why I am thinking two 12v LiFe batteries instead of one 24v LiFe ion battery for the TM and a separate cranking battery.

A 24V LIFe battery requires a special charger. Which means that if I go that way that I have to have one 24V Li battery, its on the run charger, and its special charger and one PC1200 (or similar) and potentially an on board charger for it. If I can go they way I am thinking I would have two 12V LiFe batteries with one on the go charger and one two bank standard battery charger (the 12V LiFe batteries do not need a special charger). This approach would save a ton of weight over the first option. Could also go with one 24v LiFe battery for the TM and one 12v LiFe cranking battery. But that approach is really stiff.

I am going to call Lithium Pros tomorrow and see just what they say an if what I am thinking can be done reasonably. If not then I'll just do the single 24V for the TM and the Odyssey for the cranker.

 

[Gatorgrizz27]

I wouldn’t do it personally unless your motor has a rope start and you’ve used it successfully. That being said, my motor doesn’t have one yet and I carry one of those back up jump starters, but I also have a separate battery for my trolling motor.

If you use your trolling motor very occasionally to fish docks at night, or get on and off a flat, it would probably be fine, but I’d be wary if you use it for extended periods of time. Decreased voltage is also bad for GPS’s, bilge pumps, etc, and can lead to premature failure.

You might be able to rig one of these to a single battery and use it to cut off before it runs too low to start your outboard, but it looks like the highest setting is 12.1V.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Voltage-Disconnect/dp/B00GZOP53M

I’m not sure if a momentary override with both batteries in parallel would help with starting in a low voltage situation either. Theoretically it should by doubling the amps, but I haven’t ever tried it.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Amperage-Solenoids/dp/B000MMH2Y8?th=1

 

[ifsteve]

Gator you are correct and it is another of the major advantages to Li ion batteries. They maintain their voltage output for at least 80% depth of discharge compared to lead acid/AGMs that only give you about 50%.

Hey Li Pros may say I am crazy....I'll report back what I hear. Then EVEN if I have a workable solution when I sit down to go over my build I will get the expected cost and draft differences compared to just using Odyssey's.

 

[FlyBy]

But given the new jump start batteries that are so small and inexpensive wondering if anybody has gone to just two batteries for the TM with one of them also used for cranking the outboard.

I did that. Here they are.

I use two chargers. The "house battery", which powers all 12 v. functions including starting the outboard, gets charged from the outboard and sometimes is fully charged when I get back. The other battery doesn't take long to charge.

 

[Smackdaddy53]

I did that. Here they are.
View attachment 78702 I use two chargers. The "house battery", which powers all 12 v. functions including starting the outboard, gets charged from the outboard and sometimes is fully charged when I get back. The other battery doesn't take long to charge.

Interested. Do you mind doing a break down of your batteries and wiring? I’m looking to slim down.

 

[permitchaser]

I've got a 24v, 2 battery system. Then an Interstate for cranking. So you take your cranking battery out and your chasing fish all day with your TM against the current. Now both batteries are toast. You going to use your jump to get home. Provided you charged your jump
You know my jump is a battery. Its heavy and your going to save how many lbs.

 

[RaspberryPatch]

Lets say I have been in this field for commercial solutions (not marine) for 13+ years, and been in more than a few lithium facilities in Florida (1), China (many) and Korea (2). I am also limited by commercial and contractual agreements on disclosure.

Ok ....

North America (commercial and telecom) has been slow to recover and re-introduce Lithium after the fires, and associated product recalls, that happen 13 years ago - Avestor with LMP (went bankrupt, slow recovering as a new entity out of France) and EnerSys (who owns Odyssey).

The re-emergence of larger Lithium into NA (outside of consumer goods), will mostly be tied EV, but the storage business case is weak and suspect more so for marine.

I noted the pain EnerSys suffered (RedIon failures is a matter of public record, caused major network outages in the Midwest, et cetera), but will note there is some activity with some of the mentioned companies, but focus is motive and some limited storage.

Never-the-less, we are seeing some UPS solutions being deployed with Lithium given the large weight reduction. The common chemistry here - for weight gain - is NMC and we can migrate from 240kg to 70kg for 9kwhr of Storage at C10 and much more aggressive at 10C.

So to answer the question asked earlier, why limited major players engaged ....
* Previous large liabilities and claims has focus efforts to outside US.
* Start-up cost is high --- tooling, retooling and knowledge - battery companies need to develop new skills sets for BMS and electric-chemistry.

There is very little details about Lithium Pros, but limited details suggest it is a Chinese LFP cell. LFP chemistry is capable of much more, but to reduce the cost of the battery - lower process controls are used - followed by lowering actual performance. We deploy a lot of China LFP in Asia where initial cost is the driver.

Some of the claims on weight and speed are a little exaggerated.

IfSteve, I am not sure what the going competitive rate for Marine Lithium, but I suspect you should look at other alternatives, and carefully look at price. The MSDS are "basic" and they may make them in Knoxville, but probably not.

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x885c161b1d77962f:0x2b4a550d4c2e5a2!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/lithium+knoxville/@36.0091323,-83.924256,3a,75y,276.73h,90t/data=*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sXD-ZgyhI_oOvSi33-vt7xA*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x885c161b1d77962f:0x2b4a550d4c2e5a2?sa=X!5slithium knoxville - Google Search!15sCAQ&imagekey=!1e2!2sXD-ZgyhI_oOvSi33-vt7xA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR_Yqaru_iAhUDheAKHWmWCF0Qpx8wCnoECAoQCw

This is a Streetview of the address LithiumPros listed. I also could not load their development website.

Never had a sample battery in my hands, never ripped off the cover, never put it on our test bench, never deployed it, and never visit the company. So my impressions may be wrong.

There is no please and on multiply occasions, I have considered NOT positing.

Last a typical lead battery - lets keep to TPPL construction.
* Boost Voltage - 2.4Vpc
* Float Voltage - 2.25Vpc
* Discharge Point - 2.02Vpc
* Disconnect, lets say - 1.70Vpc

So the voltage range on discharge is much smaller than hinted above, but voltage rate drop of LFP is lower than Lead on slow discharge. If you use a voltage activated disconnect, you may need to readjust.

Good evening

 

[ifsteve]

I've got a 24v, 2 battery system. Then an Interstate for cranking. So you take your cranking battery out and your chasing fish all day with your TM against the current. Now both batteries are toast. You going to use your jump to get home. Provided you charged your jump
You know my jump is a battery. Its heavy and your going to save how many lbs.

I answered this question in my post #9 in this thread. But there is more to the story than just the weight savings which I attempted to address in that same post.

 

[FlyBy]

Interested. Do you mind doing a break down of your batteries and wiring? I’m looking to slim down.

Wiring:
Battery 1- Positive to battery disconnect switch
Battery disconnect switch to outboard
Battery disconnect switch to fuse panel
Positive to ground of battery 2
Ground to outboard
Ground to TM
Ground to fuse panel

Battery 2- Positive to 60 amp circuit breaker, which has cut-off switch
Circuit breaker to TM
Circuit breaker to Power pole Micros for cut-off
Ground to Micros for 12v

Hope this helps.

 

[ifsteve]

So scrap this approach, at least if I go with Li ion. Talked to Lithium Pros and here are the options for TM and cranking with a 24v TM.

1. 24v deep cycle Li for the TM. Separate battery for cranking whether Li or standard.

2. Two 12v deep cycle Li for the TM. Separate battery for cranking whether Li or standard.

They would not use two 12v Li and have them wired for the TM and one for also cranking and electronics.

So that simplifies the decision in that the TM and cranking battery decisions are not tied to each other. Not going with a Li ion for the cranking. If it needs to be separate then its just too pricey. Now is just about the TM batteries and the cost vs weight savings and life cycle expectations.

Thanks for the replies all!

 

[DjPic]

So scrap this approach, at least if I go with Li ion. Talked to Lithium Pros and here are the options for TM and cranking with a 24v TM.

1. 24v deep cycle Li for the TM. Separate battery for cranking whether Li or standard.

2. Two 12v deep cycle Li for the TM. Separate battery for cranking whether Li or standard.

They would not use two 12v Li and have them wired for the TM and one for also cranking and electronics.

So that simplifies the decision in that the TM and cranking battery decisions are not tied to each other. Not going with a Li ion for the cranking. If it needs to be separate then its just too pricey. Now is just about the TM batteries and the cost vs weight savings and life cycle expectations.

Thanks for the replies all!

Curious what you went with for your starting battery?

 

[firecat1981]

I'm not saying it wont start your battery, what I'm saying is if you are running a 24v TM setup and using one of the batteries to start your Outboard and in the case the batteries get run down to low you carry a jump pack. The jump pack has to weigh something, why not just have a dedicated house battery then? The weight is negligible.

The pc1200 is 38lbs or so, has to be wired up and secured which adds maybe another 4-5lbs. Then you have to find an area to mount it. I see your point, but it's not negligible.
I have a lithium jump pack. Its the size of a few stacks of playing cards, weighs a pound or so, and can be stored anywhere. My friend used his to Jumpstart his F250 so it will easily do a skiff several times over. You can charge a USB device off of it in a pinch too when camping.