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Fly Fishing Shaman
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
We were having a conversation on a particular loop knot on one of the flies that was posted in the "Whats your 3 Best Flies!" thread. So instead of clogging up the thread and going into an off-topic tangent from the subject, I thought I'd put my reply on a different post. You can refer to the thread to see where the question started.

1. Super Toad Tarpon fly. Yarn body, rubber band legs, rabbit and marabou tail
@permitchaser what knot is that on the toad fly? Can't tie a knot, tie a lot? :)
coconutgroves, that looks like a Lefty Krey knot.
Backwater your right, as usual, I got the knot out of Lefty's 1986 book Fly Fishing In Saltwater. It may also be called an Arbor Knot
Lefty's loop knot and the arbor knot are totally different animals, the knot described sounds like an arbor knot, and in the heavy bite tippet knot strength isn't important, conversely the loop knot aproaches 100% strength if properly tied according to Lefty's instructions.
JC
Jon, I've tied a ton of these knots. You'll notice that the tag end in this pic points to the hook and is a loop knot.
Also Jon, with an Arbor knot, the tag end points away from the hook and is a jam knot that is cinched down to the hook.

At the hook, I always like loop knot that the tag end points towards the hook to avoid it catching weeds and slime type vegetation. About 6 or 7 years before that, I use to use another knot that the tag would stick straight out to the side, and thereby catch things, It also pulled a few times. So I wasn't crazy about that knot. So about 20yrs ago, I ran across the Lefty Krey knot. Lefty didn't actually come up with this knot. It was called a "Non-Slip Knot" and Lefty always referred to it and claimed it was his favorite knot to use, especially in saltwater. So it was referred to as the "Lefty Krey Knot." I personally heard him tell that story about it back in the 90's

Here is a video I just found to illustrate it for those who are knot familiar with it. (pun intended! ;) )



To fully and completely understand the Lefty Krey knot or what was normally referred to as the "Non-Slip Knot", especially as it pertains to fly fishing, watch this video.


Here is my experience with it. With multiple turns with the the tag around the running line before entering the tag back thru the hole, the knot seemed to be bulky, especially with 80lb bite fluoro leader material. So I had a client from Africa come fishing with me once that was down in Costa Rica fishing for tarpon down there. So a native guide showed him a loop knot that was way simpler to tie and claimed that it could be taken back apart (untied) and retied and it held. It almost looked like a perfection knot or bowline knot when finished. Simply make a half hitch loop, like to start with a non-slip knot. Go thru the eye of the hook and come thru the hole (or half hitch loop) on the other side of the hole (upward side). Have the tag come around the running line once and go thru the opposite side of the hole going back thru. Cinch down. It holds, really holds and you can work it back loose, take the tag back out of the hole, take that fly off, change the fly, put the tag back in the hole and re-cinch it down. I didn't like that it only wrapped once and didn't have confidence in it, but the guy swore by it.

So that all gave me an idea. I would take a Non-Slip knot, where Lefty throws a min of 3 turns in the tag end, I would reduce it to 2 turns (thereby reducing knot size and keeping it a simpler knot). So after a run one summer of about 20 big poons and about 100 snook on the fly (and whatever else) back then, that was test enough to make it my go-to loop knot! A buddy later dubbed it as the "Haas Knot!" It's still is a non-slip knot, but simple to tie. I've proven it over and over for 20yrs that it holds and to date, have never broke or pulled it apart. So from about 20lb fluoro northward, I use only 2 turns around the running line. It holds and that's all is needed. I've tested it down to 8lb tippet and it still works, but for anything south of 15-16lb tippet, I throw in a 3rd turns for added insurance, which can be considered a non-slip or Lefty Krey knot again. But with that size, both of those knots will have 4-6 turns in them. I've found at that point, that they are not necessary. So we still call it the Haas knot. :D

Note, in recent years, for 60-80lb fluorocarbon bite leaders sporting loop knots, especially for tarpon, I've gone to a Steve Huff double figure eight knot, since it tracks the fly extremely straight, which can be very important for fly behavior with thick leader material for tarpon. I haven't found that to be as important to other species. The thing I don't like is the tag sticks straight out and can catch stuff on it, tho with this knot, then tag is aligned and next to the running line. So it hangs up less. So if I'm fishing clear beach water will little to not grass or seaweed, then I will use this knot. Else, I'll go back to the Haas knot for grass flats, back country or night fishing.



Sorry to get off-topic, but it's a good point to catch! ;)

Btw, in the Non-Slip video, that is about as perfect of a clouser as you can get (for non-gin clear water), except I like it with chartreuse and white and a little silver or gold flash. :cool:
 

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I have been using the (what I refer to as) "MirroLure knot" for years. Since I do much of my fishing at night and re-tie often, I find this knot perfect for quick ties that can be done without looking at process. It's simple and it works.

 

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Fly Fishing Shaman
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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Yes no question, that knot is quick and easy. I've use it long ago had them pull a few times on conventional rods you can put more pressure on the rod. But again, they do work. I also use the one where you tie another half hitch, instead of just putting the tag back under like a mirrorlure knot. I can't remember what it was called but used it for about 6yrs. That one also had knot pull thru. But the mirrorlure knot you shown above was as simple as that Costa Rico knot where the tag can be pushed back thru and re-tied. So I like the added insurance of the additional wrap and also the tag facing backwards towards the hook keeps it from being buggered up catching grass and slime. But that's just my preference. It's a little harder to tie, but still kinda of simple and I can tie it in the dark as well.
 

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Fly Fishing Shaman
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Here is a video that shows the figure 8 follow through. I stop at the 1:51 mark and do not add the additional barrel knot that they show in the video...
Kinda complicated and the two doesn't chinch down together, leaving 2 separate knots. The last knot in that "fishermen's knot" at the end of your video, makes an additional figure 8 knot. If you look at the Steve Huff knot demonstration in the above video, you'll see that it's a simpler knot than the one in your video and the double figure eights jam together to form one knot.
 

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I Love microskiff.com!
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I will have to see the videos at home, since they are blocked at work. But I tie an overhand knot than something similar to the improved clinch knot to cinch it down to the over hand knot. Never had the knot fail me yet. Even caught a sword fish on it.

Backwater,
The knot with 2 overhand knots is called the canoe man knot I believe. Or at least that's what Blair Wiggins called it. I don't like it. Had it fail on me.
 

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I Love Skinny Water
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These are great knots and I have used them all on light line. But on 80-100 lb bite you can only use a few. Homer Rhode , Huff figure 8
 

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We were having a conversation on a particular loop knot on one of the flies that was posted in the "Whats your 3 Best Flies!" thread. So instead of clogging up the thread and going into an off-topic tangent from the subject, I thought I'd put my reply on a different post. You can refer to the thread to see where the question started.











Jon, I've tied a ton of these knots. You'll notice that the tag end in this pic points to the hook and is a loop knot.

Also Jon, with an Arbor knot, the tag end points away from the hook and is a jam knot that is cinched down to the hook.

At the hook, I always like loop knot that the tag end points towards the hook to avoid it catching weeds and slime type vegetation. About 6 or 7 years before that, I use to use another knot that the tag would stick straight out to the side, and thereby catch things, It also pulled a few times. So I wasn't crazy about that knot. So about 20yrs ago, I ran across the Lefty Krey knot. Lefty didn't actually come up with this knot. It was called a "Non-Slip Knot" and Lefty always referred to it and claimed it was his favorite knot to use, especially in saltwater. So it was referred to as the "Lefty Krey Knot." I personally heard him tell that story about it back in the 90's

Here is a video I just found to illustrate it for those who are knot familiar with it. (pun intended! ;) )



To fully and completely understand the Lefty Krey knot or what was normally referred to as the "Non-Slip Knot", especially as it pertains to fly fishing, watch this video.


Here is my experience with it. With multiple turns with the the tag around the running line before entering the tag back thru the hole, the knot seemed to be bulky, especially with 80lb bite fluoro leader material. So I had a client from Africa come fishing with me once that was down in Costa Rica fishing for tarpon down there. So a native guide showed him a loop knot that was way simpler to tie and claimed that it could be taken back apart (untied) and retied and it held. It almost looked like a perfection knot or bowline knot when finished. Simply make a half hitch loop, like to start with a non-slip knot. Go thru the eye of the hook and come thru the hole (or half hitch loop) on the other side of the hole (upward side). Have the tag come around the running line once and go thru the opposite side of the hole going back thru. Cinch down. It holds, really holds and you can work it back loose, take the tag back out of the hole, take that fly off, change the fly, put the tag back in the hole and re-cinch it down. I didn't like that it only wrapped once and didn't have confidence in it, but the guy swore by it.

So that all gave me an idea. I would take a Non-Slip knot, where Lefty throws a min of 3 turns in the tag end, I would reduce it to 2 turns (thereby reducing knot size and keeping it a simpler knot). So after a run one summer of about 20 big poons and about 100 snook on the fly (and whatever else) back then, that was test enough to make it my go-to loop knot! A buddy later dubbed it as the "Haas Knot!" It's still is a non-slip knot, but simple to tie. I've proven it over and over for 20yrs that it holds and to date, have never broke or pulled it apart. So from about 20lb fluoro northward, I use only 2 turns around the running line. It holds and that's all is needed. I've tested it down to 8lb tippet and it still works, but for anything south of 15-16lb tippet, I throw in a 3rd turns for added insurance, which can be considered a non-slip or Lefty Krey knot again. But with that size, both of those knots will have 4-6 turns in them. I've found at that point, that they are not necessary. So we still call it the Haas knot. :D

Note, in recent years, for 60-80lb fluorocarbon bite leaders sporting loop knots, especially for tarpon, I've gone to a Steve Huff double figure eight knot, since it tracks the fly extremely straight, which can be very important for fly behavior with thick leader material for tarpon. I haven't found that to be as important to other species. The thing I don't like is the tag sticks straight out and can catch stuff on it, tho with this knot, then tag is aligned and next to the running line. So it hangs up less. So if I'm fishing clear beach water will little to not grass or seaweed, then I will use this knot. Else, I'll go back to the Haas knot for grass flats, back country or night fishing.



Sorry to get off-topic, but it's a good point to catch! ;)

Btw, in the Non-Slip video, that is about as perfect of a clouser as you can get (for non-gin clear water), except I like it with chartreuse and white and a little silver or gold flash. :cool:
Funny you mention bowline. I use that for dolphin and tuna. Quick fly changes are needed not because they are particular about what they eat, but they make a mess out of flies in a hurry. I have always wished the made bigger hook eyes for the pelagics; you could double over a loop in the shock without including the hook eye, run the doubled over loop through the eye and around the whole fly to attach. Of course this negates the ability for the fly to track freely. Change-outs would take seconds...
 

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Fly Fishing Shaman
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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
I will have to see the videos at home, since they are blocked at work. But I tie an overhand knot than something similar to the improved clinch knot to cinch it down to the over hand knot. Never had the knot fail me yet. Even caught a sword fish on it.

Backwater,
The knot with 2 overhand knots is called the canoe man knot I believe. Or at least that's what Blair Wiggins called it. I don't like it. Had it fail on me.
The Canoe Man was Capt Mel Berman's best friend and lived over here in the Tampa Bay area. Capt Mel had a radio talk show for years here in the area. He had an impressive local fishing website and it still lives on after the passing of both.

www.capmel.com. There's a lot of good local fishing info on that site.

The Canoe Man didn't come up with that knot, as Blair Wiggins (from the east coast) refers to it as. It was just "dubbed" that name since he used it, talked it up and other people refer to it as the knot the "Canoe Man" uses (a.k. The Canoe Man Knot), just like the Lefty Krey knot is referred to. That is the loop knot I used exclusively for about 6yrs (which is the one I couldn't remember the name and refer to Danny Moody as such) until I saw the Lefty Krey knot. Basically 2 overhand or half hitch knots jammed together. Like I said earlier, I've had them pull a couple of times.

Now Steve Huff does another loop knot for smaller fish, like permit, bones, redfish and such. Not tarpon. I've never use it. But I'm sure it works good. Again, the only thing I don't like about it, for thicker leader material, is that it's a bigger knot. But not so much for light tippet only, not shock or bite leader.


Btw, I've met Steve several times but don't personally know him. But I have a huge about of respect for the guy and I still try to learn from pears like him. Steve was/is a well known, well respected Keys and Glades guide, specializing in fly fishing for tarpon, bonefish and Glades action.
 

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Fly Fishing Shaman
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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Funny you mention bowline. I use that for dolphin and tuna. Quick fly changes are needed not because they are particular about what they eat, but they make a mess out of flies in a hurry. I have always wished the made bigger hook eyes for the pelagics; you could double over a loop in the shock without including the hook eye, run the doubled over loop through the eye and around the whole fly to attach. Of course this negates the ability for the fly to track freely. Change-outs would take seconds...
Funny thing about a bowline knot. It's my favorite non-fishing loop knot, bar none. It's got to be the best hold in any rope. It's insanely too easy to tie, once you get the hang of it. Too easy and would just be too simple to use for a fishing knot. Thought it would slip to easily but thought about it. So I started trying it on leader material. BHAM! It works! Quick and easy! Tag faces back somewhat too. I just can't get myself to use or trust it for some dumb reason. But here's the real kicker about it that I figured out about 5 yrs ago, it works on braided line too! Try it out for yourself. I just don't have 100% confidence in it tho but have used it on both in a pinch to do a quick speed loop knot. Go figure! Ha! Still, I can't get myself to trust it for fishing.

And for those guys who don't know how to tie a bowline knot (pronounced "bowlean" knot), here's how to do it (normal Navy and boaters knot).

The biggest problem what I've heard is it only has a 55% knot strenght. So maybe it's ok for heavy leader material tying to hooks, but not thinner tippet materials. Again, I don't use it for fishing, but it's an amazing loop knot for ropes.
 

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One thing that I had never thought about on loop knots that a guide buddy told me. Make sure, with whatever loop knot you use, that the resultant loop is small enough so that it can't flop around the eyes of the fly. I always tended to tie my loops small but if it came out too big I never worried about it. But his point made sense. If the loop wraps around the dumbell eyes the fly will retrieve crooked which is not good.
 

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Can anyone tell me the knot strength of th Arbor knot. It's easy to tie and creates a loop any size. And has been used on Tarpon flies to catch Tarpon
 

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Fly Fishing Shaman
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
One thing that I had never thought about on loop knots that a guide buddy told me. Make sure, with whatever loop knot you use, that the resultant loop is small enough so that it can't flop around the eyes of the fly. I always tended to tie my loops small but if it came out too big I never worried about it. But his point made sense. If the loop wraps around the dumbell eyes the fly will retrieve crooked which is not good.
Good point Steve!



Can anyone tell me the knot strength of th Arbor knot. It's easy to tie and creates a loop any size. And has been used on Tarpon flies to catch Tarpon
If It where only 50% knot strength on 60lb bite leader, would that work for you?
 

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Yes no question, that knot is quick and easy. I've use it long ago had them pull a few times on conventional rods you can put more pressure on the rod. But again, they do work. I also use the one where you tie another half hitch, instead of just putting the tag back under like a mirrorlure knot. I can't remember what it was called but used it for about 6yrs. That one also had knot pull thru. But the mirrorlure knot you shown above was as simple as that Costa Rico knot where the tag can be pushed back thru and re-tied. So I like the added insurance of the additional wrap and also the tag facing backwards towards the hook keeps it from being buggered up catching grass and slime. But that's just my preference. It's a little harder to tie, but still kinda of simple and I can tie it in the dark as well.
Yea, for lighter leaders < 30lbs I use this with the double half hitch that you referenced and I have never lost a fish. And yep, I can tie it with my eyes closed in about 15 seconds. If there are fish around, and I am in a hurry it's for sure my go-to. Also feel like I can control loop size perfectly with this knot.

I am actually interested in what everyone uses for their shock to tippet connection. I used to use a full huffnagle, mostly when I was making offshore leaders but it's so damn big. And I always feel nervous using an Albright (although I don't think I've ever had a problem, I tend to only use it with hard wire). Started using this 'slim beauty' one, and it seems good. Curious if anyone uses anything else
http://www.animatedknots.com/slimbeauty/#ScrollPoint
 

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Man, used to love knots as a kid. I can't seem to find the name online, but I used to do this one painstaking knot to connect 50# or 80# directly to the swivel when we didn't use wind-ons offshore (so no double-line). It was like a beautiful 4-inch long knot that looked like the knot portion of a bimini when it was finished directly to the swivel.
 

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I am actually interested in what everyone uses for their shock to tippet connection. I used to use a full huffnagle, mostly when I was making offshore leaders but it's so damn big. And I always feel nervous using an Albright (although I don't think I've ever had a problem, I tend to only use it with hard wire). Started using this 'slim beauty' one, and it seems good. Curious if anyone uses anything else
http://www.animatedknots.com/slimbeauty/#ScrollPoint
I keep it simple. I stay uni-uni
 

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I use a 2 turn version of the lefty loop knot, it has never failed me to this point, been using it for years. Very easy to control loop size when tying it and you can clip the tag so it doesn't catch on the grass. You need a pair of pliers or something to pull the hook on to cinch the knot down. As for leader material I mainly use a slim beauty for joining small diameter to larger diameter lines.
 

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@Backwater my original question in the other thread was a bit of a joke - that is a bulky knot to use on such heavy line and it also was not straight. But I'm glad it sparked comments to make another thread!

I use the perfection knot on flies most of the time. It takes a little time to learn, but once you have it, it is super easy and strong when done right. This is the same knot many tie on leaders to loop line connections. Some knots are better on flouro than mono, and vise versa, depending on if it is true knot, or a clinch.
 
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