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Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by TomFL, Apr 13, 2011.
Omg! I didnt think they made politicians like that anymore! Anyone remember the 50's? When the american dream was real, we Won wars, people had a new car every two years, We were the leader of technology in the world, we were a superpower people didnt F with??!!! All because we made everything HERE! Its not that hard to figure out. Oh, and when every house had an american flag flying and the people were proud? Not anymore, and it just gets worse with todays youth... :-/ :'(
I agree with everything this guy speaks but in my opinion he is missing a key issue. The pipeline can pump 2.2 mil barrels a day. Problem is Valdez only has a refining capacity of 55,000 barrels per day and it would take far longer than three years to build more capacity. But he is right - it nedds to be done.
If people are worried about the caribou - I'll volunteer to round them up and relocate them to my freezer.
DN, if the facts are correct they built the pipeline AND the refinery in 3 years. Adding capacity and/or another refinery should take the same or less today if we really want it to.
Don't be fooled by the time lines, if they wanted to they could slap up another refinery in 6 months, but that means more production and less profit :-/
Devils advocate here: Building a refinery could be done in less time than 3 years but the permitting process can take several years. With permitting you're talking many federal, state, local, and possibly even city agencies/reviews.
But I agree it needs to be done. Worst part of it is, an oil company will not spend billions of dollars to produce higher quantity of fuels at a lower profit per unit?
I've learned permits can be passed as quickly or as slowly as interested parties want. Case in point there are several historical society projects around town that not only have there permits approved almost immediately, but have inspections the same day they call because of there political presence. Most other projects have to wait weeks for each.
Or something closer to me, our Fire Dept was told by the county(via the state) that having our trucks permitted as Paramedic units could take as long as a year and thousands of dollars. Well after a certain amount of pressure all our trucks were permitted in 2 weeks and for $12 each.
There are solutions to every problem, you just need to know how to push the right buttons .
To your knowledge the permits were $12. On the back side there was probably a $10,000 political contribution made.
A refinery project is a whole different animal than a historical home getting a paint job; it has the NIMBY principle attached to it. You need an example; you live in Lakeland, look up how many years it took to get the permit for the landfill out on Winterlake Road, or the GE powerplant off of I-4.
I can assure you no political contributions were made! We are a Fire Dept. not a corporation. All it took was asking the right questions to the right people who couldn't come up with anymore time delaying answers
The Landfill was before I moved up this way so I can't comment on that one. As far as the power plant goes, which one are you refering to? Do you mean Unit 5 off of lake parker? If so that one was built ahead of projections, and I have lost alot of respect for GE's enginuity on that POS! IT was such a mistake of engineering that GE has assisted with the repair costs for years even though it's well beyond the warranty. Anyway this is all besides the point, I'm just saying when things really need to get done they get done, especially when they will help the economy and add good paying jobs to a local region.
Not even on the best days. These don't just get slapped up.
As Ducknut mentioned about the NIMBY principle, which you have to qwell before you can even start the construction and half the planning. The permitting process will take forever simply because it would be for a refinery. Every environmental group would stick their nose in it. You would have political ties on both sides of the battle with it being how many concessions (parks, schools, roads, preserves) need to be built also.
There has not been a refinery built in the states in like what, 30 -40 years. Then all the bids have to be submitted and reveiwed. Once someone gets awarded the project, it will most likely turn out to be a joint venture, so those players will need to negotiated and be brought in. Then the major amount of the engineering will start. The vendors will have to be chosen among them with their bids and engineering. Procuring and producing of the equipment will take time. Logistics of getting it there from everywhere around the world. It is not all American made, unfortunately. I don't know what the deal is with Alaska and whether it is union or non-union, but that will have to be sorted out too.
Location will play a role as to whether or not a large mancamp will need to be built and maintained. Being built in Alaska with the weather will also bring about its own troubles with the cold, so that will hold things up in order to start construction at a certain time. For example, civil work, (roads, concrete bases, and pylons, cable vaults) will be a lot easier in the summer than the winter.
Then the construction itself will take a while. Refineries are quite large and there will be a lot of work for several years. You can't just fill with a ton of people because things have to be done in a certain order to build it correctly.
This is a very general and small overview of what it will take.
It would be a couple years of good paying jobs and work for thousands and it would boost our stagnant refining capacity which all would be good things.
I am curious what the name of the plant and who owns it where you are talking about the problems with GE. I know Calpine owns a two plants over there. I would research to see what is going on. One thing with those plants. Someone of them are ongoing test facilities for GE and other vendors even though they are not called that. A manufacturer (say GE) will work a deal with a utility on a new type or design unit and in return for "extra" coverage of overhauls, repairs, and parts, etc. This is how new designs are brought out in the power industry. These units are to big and cost too much to build "demo" units compared to say a new outboard model.
Yes yes, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. Once again I call BS cause NIMBY only goes so far and if not in that backyard there are plenty of other ones (a reason Lakeland doesn't have a trash mound, we dump our crap in mulberry ).
There hasn't been a petroleum refinery built in the US since I think 1976, that is true, but there have been refineries built since then. There have been ethanol refineries, and a ton of biodesiel refineries! Including 2 in Lakeland in the last few years. Even though they produce a cleaner fuel they still use the same dangerous chemicals and have the same NIMBY principal attatched to them. The gas plants haven't popped up because that is one way they control prices, if they can produce more product then supply goes up and profits go down. If running a refinery was a major source of profit, which it isn't, we would have many more and this wouldn't be an issue.
Unit 5 is owned by the City of Lakeland, and run by Lakeland Electric. I've talked to some of the guys who were involved in the original build, they said it was sold to them as being a new design that would be an improvement on all gas turbines. I didn't know rusting blades were considered an improvement. Maybe it's like a golf ball, the more pitted it is the farther it will go ;D.
NIMBY only goes so far but it has kept us from drilling in ANWAR in Alaska for a long time. As I said, bigger the project, the more greenies that will cry and scream. Especially something as evil as an oil refinery. You are correct that there have been other types of refineries built except for petroleum where we get our gas. And I will disagree with you, they are profitable, otherwise the others would not be running. They are not gov't subsidized so that means they make money. Because if they do not exist, we don't have gas to put in our vehicles. The environmental regulations and BS is what has kept more from being built. But our demand keeps increasing.
If you have a garden hose(supply) flowing to fill a bucket (demand) and want to keep it full, it only takes a few seconds. Now increase the bucket to a bath tub, then a kiddy pool, then an Olympic pool while still only filling with a garden hose. It takes longer and longer to fill back up. That is where this country is with the refining capacity vs demand as there are more cars on the road. If our country could process more, more could be stored in the strategic oil reserves and released more often as buffer against rising prices from threats of supply shortages. Next time there is a fire at a refinery in the US, watch the price of oil go up immediately on worries about supply. Yes they are profitable. Now all of these issues are huge political tools that I am sure there are some big battles, compromises, etc that are fought and negotiated way away from the public's eyes.
So you also just called BS on yourself with this
after you make a broad and incorrect statement of:
Now, Lakeland Electric Unit 5 has nothing to do with GE. So, you better apologize or Obama's minions will destroy your life since he is in bed with Immelt and GE. It is a Siemens Westinghouse unit, serial number 1. At the time it was the newest in technology and also in the development stages as I described in the first post. That is how new units are brought out. Several of the outages were upgrades and some were failures. Rusting of the blading is a plant water issue and not a manufacturer issue.
I'm not arguing the fact that the damn tree huggers hold things up, but there are ways around everything! If not we wouldn't have operationg oil rigs in the gulf right now, and we wouldn't be reconsidering allowing oil rigs closer to Florida's coast line. Environmentalist groups can be a pain, but usually fall to the side when profits are on the line. Refineries are a neccessary evil in the link between barrel and pump, so unless oil companies have them they can't do business. All one has to do is a simple google search to find dozens of articles siting the low profitability of these refineries, typical intake is only 4 cents a gallon.
While you have focused on new refineries you also have to remember that most of the 149 have largely expanded their capacity. True we haven't built a new one, but doubling the size of some of them was done very quickly despite the environmentalist groups.
I fail to see how showing a bad example of supply and demand means I called bs on myself :, but whatever floats your boat .
I will say you are correct sir and tip my hat as Unit 5 is a siemens, I did get that mixed up with the old plant to the south, which was a POS as well. As far as water quality and rusting issues, prior to installation water quality tests were done as well as at each major refit. Premature failure still occured despite assurances that the water was fine for the unit.
Now Beavis I know you love to argue with me, but this is all really pointless and taking up to much time. Can we just go back to name calling since it requires less typing
What I don't understand about Greenies is they wont allow drilling in ANWAR because it may kill some special grass etc... but it is O.K. to buy oil from regime's that kill it,s own people. [smiley=frustrated.gif]. Just a side note sorry to interrupt the love fest
I did not say you had a bad example of supply and demand. Reread it. Like I said, another broad and incorrect statement. I am not going to get into turbine failures with you because that would not be fair since that is out of your league and I don't feel like typing that much.
4 cents a gallon is 4 cents a gallon. It is still a vital piece of the puzzle that brings gas to everyone that has to be done. And it is the bottleneck in the US system. It is profitable as you have said. Whether high or low, still profitable. Hell I think the gov’t makes more off the sale of gasoline than the oil companies with all the added taxes on the gas.
We agree that there are ways around the greenies. But we differ on the how long that takes and that it can always be done. What about some company wanting to drill off of Florida now since the BP problem. I think it would be easier to drill a hole in the sun. It can be done sometimes and is not as easy as you make it out to be.
I was not refering to my example I was refering to yours. None of this has to actually do with the topic at hand and has everything to do with us starting another pissing match reaching back from a previous topic. I'll bow out, insult me all you wish, my ego isn't hinged on being the smartest in a chatroom on the internet. And insulting people with broad and incorrect statements like "since that is out of your league" is far below my level of maturity.
To the rest of you guys, good debating with you as always
Let's look at a gallon of gasoline as a whole:
Cost of crude oil- 53%
Cost of production- 19%
Govt taxes- 19%
Within production is the profit from refining. In distribution is the retail markup from the gas station.
Beavis, you are (somewhat) wrong- the fed govt does not make more than the oil companies but along with the state and local taxes it is approximately equal. So the next time you see Exxon makes $10 billion per quarter you can be assured that the government made even more because they also have to pay income tax.
Let's say that there is indeed only $0.04 per gallon of profit per gallon for refining oil. The US uses 18.7 million barrels per day. Each barrel has 42 gallons so the refiners are making $31.4 million per day. I call that a profitable venture.
Whether you agree or disagree the fact is that oil is a commodity and the price is contolled by demand not some oil lord. If there is an anticipated disruption in the supply chain then the price will rise and many times rise disproportionately to the actual disruption.
Believe it or not you could build 100 more refineries and it would not lower the price one penney. The problem the US has is not the refining process as all of the US refining capacity is roughly operating at approximately 88.9%. That says that there is excess capacity that can be utilized at the refiners. The real problem is supply. We do not get enough raw oil to the distillers so they can make our wares that we need and want.
Now I am not a tree hugger but I certainly do respect the enviroment but I will fight long and hard to keep a refinery out of my neighborhood - but if they build it in yours- then I am fine with that! Hey, is that what is meant by NIMBY?
Beasvis- anytime you want to teach me about a turbine plant I would be all ears, always willing to learn something new.
I was not insulting you. Just stating since you are a fireman, correct? You should have had a tour of the facility so that if something happens your dept should know a little about the place and what hazards are at the site, who to meet coordinate with when you arrive for a situation assessment. Things like that.
And no, corn milk was not mentioned.
Ducknut, the tax thing was just wild speculation on the gas tax thing. I did not even look at the numbers. I think, guessing here, there is about 10-20% of tax in the fuel based on the price at any given time.
After all the money that has been invested in all the assets and equipment, and the continued investment in assets, R&D, and exploration to bring all of that to market, that profit per gallon goes down was all that I was referring to. Where regardless, the gov't still gets their cheese. 10 billion a quarter is usually reported as the gross by media wanting to make the evil oil companies look bad. They should be happy. A lot of other people are making money off of that too.
In terms of the NIMBY thing, wait until they get serious about wanting to go after the oil shale throughout the western US. No big deal since it going on in northern Canada right now. I think I remember hearing that it would only be profitable if oil was over 50 a barrel. It has been there a while now for the most part so, you have to wonder if the plans are in making now.
In terms of refining capacity, as I mentioned, it could be a good hedge against future shortages and slightly buffer the any price swings. Just going off the top of my head here from things I have seen and read, but we don't keep all the oil we drill either, especially out of Alaska. Whether that was quality dependent I do not recall, so that may be a factor. I have not heard we do not get enough to the distillers. As was mentioned, we have not built a refinery since the 70's but I know out demand has gone up. Even modifying them seems like band aids vs just building several more.
The 88.9 %. Just making sure we are speaking the same language here. That is 88.9 of what we are bringing in or 88.9 % of rated capacity.
Too much to type on here for the turbine plants, may be one day fishing or over a beer or several. Most people find it boring as hell.
here is my .02.
My company now provides sat comms to 90% of the worlds gas and oil industry.
We just bought slumberger GCS
we just bought caprock comms
we just boaught core180 (gov't terrestrial networks)
We make millions off the gas and oil, as well as gov't contracts. As long as I keep getting paid I am happy.
really has nothing to do with yalls conversation, i just felt like typing.