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Gheenoe Restoration Work In Progress - Looking for Advice and Critique

4K views 30 replies 9 participants last post by  leon jones 
#1 ·
Hey everyone! I'm new to this forum but the rebuilds and fixes I've seen are awesome! A friend gave me this 15'4" Gheenoe as a project and I decided to tackle it. These are the photos I've taken along the way, with the first being how I got it and the last being from today. Still not done with it, but was wondering everybody's thoughts on what l've done so far and what to work on from here? The transom is needing to be completely rebuilt and I'll paint everything once it's done. This is my first time doing a boat restoration and working with fiberglass in general, so l'm sure l've done plenty of things wrong, but just looking for some constructive criticism and advice on where to go next from here. Thanks!

Initial Condition:

Plant Natural material Boats and boating--Equipment and supplies Motor vehicle Wood

Motor vehicle Wood Grass Plant Bumper

Automotive tire Wood Sleeve Grey Trunk

Brown Paint Wood Rectangle Beige


Phase 1 - Removing Old Fiberglass and Getting Holes Prepped for Patch

Automotive tire Grass Automotive exterior Motor vehicle Plant

Hood Motor vehicle Road surface Boats and boating--Equipment and supplies Wing

Hood Automotive tire Automotive exterior Motor vehicle Boats and boating--Equipment and supplies


Phase 2 - Patching Holes and Sanding Patches to Blend in with the Rest of the Hull
Boat Blue Boats and boating--Equipment and supplies Watercraft Motor vehicle

Hood Plant Sleeve Wood Grass

Automotive tire Boats and boating--Equipment and supplies Road surface Wood Asphalt


Will be posting a Part 2 for the rest of the pictures.
 
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#3 ·
Looking great so far!! Be careful not to go too far with the sander/flap wheel as these hulls are thin as I’m sure you know at this point. If you feel any thin spots beside the patches made from prep sanding or feathering the new repairs, you might throw some more glass on any spots like that to get them to around the same thickness as the rest of the hull to be safe. Don’t worry about getting her perfect, these hulls like to warp a little bit with age sometimes, especially on the sides.

if you are able to get some locally, I would highly recommend coosa/Penske board for the transom and recore it such that it covers the entire area of the transom as opposed to the factory transom core that stops short of the hull bottom a bit. If you’re not doing a deck or false floor, you can probably order a 2’x2’ square of coosa online for pretty cheap and not much shipping cost. Marine ply well saturated with resin will work too, just make sure your motor mounting holes are sealed well with resin and/or 4200/5200. Tab the new transom core into the hull sides and bottom at least 3 inches if not more, especially if you’re putting a heavy 4 stroke 9.9hp+ on it and/or jackplate.

Are you keeping the original interior configuration with benches or planning any decks/false floor?

Keep it up!
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the advice! I was thinking about applying Bondo Glass-Reinforced filler to the areas around the patches, and to where the flap wheel was a little aggresive. That way I can sand it smooth and get a nicer finish. I'm thinking that will also reinforce the area and make it a little stronger since Bondo Glass has fiberglass in it. What are your thoughts on that?

I'm keeping the original configuration with the benches for now. One of the benches has a pretty big crack that I'll have to repair, but other than that, they're in good shape. The top of the benches had some type of adhesive with fragments of wood on it from where the previous owner had wood for seating. I was able to sand it smooth and now they look pretty good. May do a big square of fiberglass on top of the bench to reinforce them, but not sure yet.

I had heard of Coosa board, but thought it was bit too expensive for me right now. Was going more the marine plywood route. Was debating whether or not to keep the original shape of the wood from the transom (which was about half the length of the fiberglass backing) but will probably extend it all the way down and glass it in as you suggested. Is marine plywood necessary or will exterior grade plywood work as well? Had seen some people on Youtube use exterior plywood but wasn't sure if that was advisable or not.
 
#25 ·
Thanks for the advice! I was thinking about applying Bondo Glass-Reinforced filler to the areas around the patches,
... What are your thoughts on that?
... some people on Youtube use exterior plywood but wasn't sure if that was advisable or not.
BONDO in any form is not recommended though many will argue "i've heard ..."

Bondo products are polyester based and though it will stick to the original fiberglass of the hull which is also polyester it's bonding ability is designed for surfaces which do not flex(cars) like all boats do to some extent

YOUTUBE is knot your friend in this case specially when the videos recommend using EXTERIOR PLYWOOD for marine/boat applications

as mentioned elsewhere in this thread MARINE PLYWOOD is indicated for all boat work

MARINE plywood comes in several grades/qualities

it is GENERALLY void free and all plies are of the same species w/ more plies for any given thickness than construction grade

the more common marine plywoods are okoume, meranti and fir

okoume is lighter butt more prone to decay and usually comes in BS1088 quality which is equal thickness veneer core for all layers w/o voids or patches

meranti is heavier and le$$ and comes in both BS1088 and BS6566 grades w/ the BS6566 having a thinner exterior layer and sometimes fewer layers than BS1088 butt still more than construction grade plywood

fir is the lea$t expensive of the 3 with even fewer layers than BS6566 butt more than construction grade w/ all layers allowing "patches" to achieve the zero void target

construction/exterior grade plywood is usually yellow pine which is heavier and far fewer layers than any of the marine grades AND it will have voids n irregularities inside that will eventually begin it's degradation from within and only become evident when the damage has been dunn(there is NO way to prevent moisture from getting into the interior plies of construction grade plywood even when glassed over

for all practical purposes exterior construction and marine grades of plywood use the same or similar glue which passes the boil test

use of construction grade plywood provides you w/ an average 5 year life expectancy for the project

fir plywood will check unless glassed over

i would not use exterior plywood. you have spent a ton of time already,
...
get a sheet of BS-1088 okume marine plywood ... when used properly it will last for decades.

you can order full sheets or 1/2 sheets off the internet, or try your local lumber place. If i can get okume locally here on cape cod im sure you'll be able to find some local to you.

...
good job so far! keep it up and you'll have a boat soon!
SOUND ADVICE

Ok, thanks! I'll start looking around locally and see who has it. Any thoughts on the Bondo Glass-Reinforced filler? I've used normal Bondo body filler on other projects and it's done really well on giving a smooth finish. Has anybody used the fibeglass-reinforced stuff before? If I apply it to the spine of the boat where the old patch was, and around the new patches, that should reinforce the strength of the fiberglass and give a smooth finish, correct?
INCORRECT !!!

BONDO POOKEY has no integrety

for fillets and fairing mix wood FLOUR(knot sawdust) or cotton fibers in EPOXY to the already mentioned P-nut Butter consistency for your filler

mixed to a ketchup consistency is good for bonding just rememberize to precoat both surfaces w/ un-thickened epoxy to prevent joint/glue starvation as the pox will seep into the surfaces drying the gluing effect out

a trick i use when glassing is once the fabric is filled i mix a slurry of epoxy and wood flour for the finish coats giving the effect of skrim coats which will fair easier

NOTE ... when you know there will need to be several coats of epoxy for any DO THEM ALL AT ONCE when at all possible

as soon as one coat gets tacky apply the next ... and so on and so on ...

this creates a chemical bond between coats and can be done w/o cleaning/wiping/sanding like are required for adding coats to cured pox

layers of cured pox are held together by mechanical bonding which is not as strong as chemical bonding

this is called HOT COATING and it saves lotsa labor over the duration of the project

i warn the bridal unit when i'm glassing and she knows i'll be home when i'm dunn

ambient temperature and humidity both affect epoxy operations time wise so there'z darn little chance i'll be able to tell her WHEN...

Ok. Here are some pictures of the inside of the Gheenoe. (The cutouts on the floor and seat are what I still need to patch.) In your opinion, do you think it would be a good idea to add maybe 2 layers of Fiberglass Cloth to the floor to give some extra strength? It wouldn't really hurt anything if I decided to, right?
View attachment 230989 View attachment 230990

View attachment 230991 View attachment 230992
for patching the inside of the hull i'd suggest cutting your patches so the thread pattern crosses and dips thru corners and edges at a 45º angle(bias cut)

when the yarn/thread pattern is set @ 90º only 1/2 the threads cross the corner/edge

w/ bias cut patches ALL the threads cross the edge which is easier to get to ay down and doubles the actual strength of the patch as seen here



2 layers of bias cut cloth equals the strength of 4 layers w/ 1/2 the pox consumption

once the internal stringers have been renewed to original strength there shouldn't be any need to add weight to the hull w/ extra layers

That’s a heckuva project for sure. To answer a few of your questions.

Bondo glass will not add strength but it does work well as a filler.

Wood: Absolutely get Marine grade. The glues may be the same between MG and Exterior but the MG is Zero void and a better finish grade. Usually in A/B range. You essentially have Okume, Meranti and Douglas fir to choose from. Okume is the lightest and most expensive. Doug fir is the most common. Locally for me it’s about 100$ a sheet.
Either is fine, so long as you saturate them with epoxy.

Adding strength: If you want to add extra glass for overall strength, just do it internally at this point. Just keep in mind that you are also adding weight, so don’t get too carried away.

Removing the old paint
: A DA sander will get it done. I’m not a big fan of chemical strippers, although sometimes they are necessary.

Teansom: I’m not all that familiar with the GN configuration, but I’d take it from floor to top edge. Make an epoxy pnut butter and put it on the floor and in between the transom and outer skin, press the new transom into the floor. Then turn the excess that squeezes out into a filet. Clamp it altogether and allow to dry. Then glass and tab all together.

A pretty good resource is the gougeon bros book on boat construction. It’s free, and although it’s all west system’s products, the information is pretty universal across all products.
fir marine plywood will likely work as well as the original transom if it is 100% bonded to the fiberglass transom and then glassed over 100% on the inside all work being done with epoxy

if the original transom is 1" thick i'd recommend using 2 layers of 1/2" marine fir plywood 100% laminated together w/ ketchup thickness epoxy for glue and allowed to set with weights holding them in place

once you have your wooden transom ready to install set it in place and from the outside drill 3/16" holes thru the fiberglass into the wood in a pattern of 6"-8" between screws

coat the side of the plywood to be bonded w/ un-thickened epoxy so it has a chance to penetrate the wood and do the same to the inside of the glass transom

then using a grooved ceramic tile grouting spreader cover the wooden surface to be bonded 100% w/ ketchup thick epoxy and set in pace so your screw holes line up

using #6 drywall screws w/ a small piece of scrap 1/4" plywood for a washer from the outside screw the plywood in place and the screws will hold it until the epoxy cures 24± hours

once the epoxy has cured remove the screws and fill the holes with P-nut butter thick epoxy and tape over the pookey w/ masking tape to hold it in place

give it 48hours and finish the outside of the transom to your personal specs

Thanks so much! I'll definitely be getting the marine plywood for the transom. By "epoxy peanut butter" do you mean slightly thickened resin or something else? I saw one guy on Youtube actually use the Bondo Glass between the plywood and the outer skin. Not sure if that's a good idea or if the "epoxy peanut butter" is more the way to go.


I have an orbital sander that I slapped a 60-grit disc on and tried to sand down the rough spots, but the paint/gel coat that is on it is super tough. The sander doesn't seem to do too much. It definitely takes off some layers, but not enough. Any tips or tricks to be more effective with it?


So in your opinion, is the Bondo Glass comparable to fairing compound or is fairing compound the way I want to go for a smooth finish?

Thanks for the suggestion on the Gougeon Brothers book. I'll check that out.
FORGET BONDO IN ANY FORM OR FASHION ... it is an automotive not a marine product

do all your laminating bonding fairing and filleting with EPOXY

using the same chemistry thru out your project will be in your best intrest

you wil basically be using 3 thicknesses/viscosities of epoxy for the entire project

un-thickened is what you use for pre-coating surfaces for laminating and bonding

ketchup thickness is what is used for bonding after the surfaces have been pre-coated

P-nut Butter thickness is your filleting and fairing viscosity

i mix wood flour(not sawdust) into my mixed epoxy to get the desired viscosity/thickness after pre-coating

Makes sense. Thanks!

Just got some more resin in today, so will be working more on finishing up the inside of the Gheenoe.

Question on the bars that are on the side of the Gheenoe. It has one spot with a nasty gash in it and some surrounding holes where something must have been attached previously. (Pic below) Any ideas on a good fix for this?
View attachment 231075
once you beat this piece back into shape you will need to have it TIG welded (before painting)

NOTE ... "fiberglass resin" is not EPOXY

BON CHANCE

leon
 
#5 ·
i would not use exterior plywood. you have spent a ton of time already, and will be spending more time going forward, just to have your crappy plywood delaminate from the inside out because the crappy cheap glue holding together to the crappy cheap wood together all rotted out.

get a sheet of BS-1088 okume marine plywood. its certified and guaranteed to be free from voids and uses a water and boil proof adhesive to hold the plywood together. when used properly it will last for decades.

you can order full sheets or 1/2 sheets off the internet, or try your local lumber place. If i can get okume locally here on cape cod im sure you'll be able to find some local to you.

when you drills holes in okume for your transom, just overdrill the hole size, then fill it with thickened epoxy. once it dries redrill the hole the proper smaller size dead centered into the thickened resin. this way if water ever gets past your 5200 i just hits thickened resin, not the wood itself.

or you can go the total OCD route that i did. overdrill your transom holes, fill with thickened epoxy and line them with a CF tube.

good job so far! keep it up and you'll have a boat soon!
 
#6 ·
Ok, thanks! I'll start looking around locally and see who has it. Any thoughts on the Bondo Glass-Reinforced filler? I've used normal Bondo body filler on other projects and it's done really well on giving a smooth finish. Has anybody used the fibeglass-reinforced stuff before? If I apply it to the spine of the boat where the old patch was, and around the new patches, that should reinforce the strength of the fiberglass and give a smooth finish, correct?
 
#7 ·
the bondo won't add strength in any which way at all. this isn't a car, i wouldn't suggest bondo.

if you need more structural support aka strength you need to add more layers of fiberglass. sand what you got to a rough finish to help the next layer stick, and add more glass and resin if you want to make it stronger.

to get a nice smooth finish people use a fairing compound after the glass/cloth work is down. you can mix your own, or buy premade stuff. just google it.
 
#8 ·
Ok. Here are some pictures of the inside of the Gheenoe. (The cutouts on the floor and seat are what I still need to patch.) In your opinion, do you think it would be a good idea to add maybe 2 layers of Fiberglass Cloth to the floor to give some extra strength? It wouldn't really hurt anything if I decided to, right?
Wood Grey Sleeve Road surface Flooring

Grey Road surface Wood Asphalt Automotive tire

Brown Wood Grey Beige Rectangle

Rectangle Grey Wood Artifact Composite material
 
#12 ·
Thanks! I've repaired all the holes on both sides like you mentioned. I'm talking about solely for the purpose of strengthening the hull of the Gheenoe. Is it worth it to apply an extra layer of fiberglass to the outside, or is doing it on the inside enough?
 
#16 ·
Thanks for all the help so far! An additional question: The paint on the boat is cracking and not smooth at all. It's not the fiberglass that's cracking/peeling, but it's the paint. I've heard some people talk about using paint remover. Is paint remover the best way to do this, or is there a better way?
 
#18 ·
That’s a heckuva project for sure. To answer a few of your questions.

Bondo glass will not add strength but it does work well as a filler.

Wood: Absolutely get Marine grade. The glues may be the same between MG and Exterior but the MG is Zero void and a better finish grade. Usually in A/B range. You essentially have Okume, Meranti and Douglas fir to choose from. Okume is the lightest and most expensive. Doug fir is the most common. Locally for me it’s about 100$ a sheet.
Either is fine, so long as you saturate them with epoxy.

Adding strength: If you want to add extra glass for overall strength, just do it internally at this point. Just keep in mind that you are also adding weight, so don’t get too carried away.

Removing the old paint: A DA sander will get it done. I’m not a big fan of chemical strippers, although sometimes they are necessary.

Teansom: I’m not all that familiar with the GN configuration, but I’d take it from floor to top edge. Make an epoxy pnut butter and put it on the floor and in between the transom and outer skin, press the new transom into the floor. Then turn the excess that squeezes out into a filet. Clamp it altogether and allow to dry. Then glass and tab all together.

A pretty good resource is the gougeon bros book on boat construction. It’s free, and although it’s all west system’s products, the information is pretty universal across all products.
 
#19 ·
Thanks so much! I'll definitely be getting the marine plywood for the transom. By "epoxy peanut butter" do you mean slightly thickened resin or something else? I saw one guy on Youtube actually use the Bondo Glass between the plywood and the outer skin. Not sure if that's a good idea or if the "epoxy peanut butter" is more the way to go.

Removing the old paint: A DA sander will get it done. I’m not a big fan of chemical strippers, although sometimes they are necessary.
I have an orbital sander that I slapped a 60-grit disc on and tried to sand down the rough spots, but the paint/gel coat that is on it is super tough. The sander doesn't seem to do too much. It definitely takes off some layers, but not enough. Any tips or tricks to be more effective with it?

Bondo glass will not add strength but it does work well as a filler.
So in your opinion, is the Bondo Glass comparable to fairing compound or is fairing compound the way I want to go for a smooth finish?

Thanks for the suggestion on the Gougeon Brothers book. I'll check that out.
 
#21 ·
Thanks, I'll definitely find a DA sander and try it out. 80 Grit disc would probably work good with it, right?

From the very limited knowledge I have of thickeners, I thought they were more for overhead repairs. What's the benefit of using it for the transom?
 
#23 ·
Makes sense. Thanks!

Just got some more resin in today, so will be working more on finishing up the inside of the Gheenoe.

Question on the bars that are on the side of the Gheenoe. It has one spot with a nasty gash in it and some surrounding holes where something must have been attached previously. (Pic below) Any ideas on a good fix for this?
Wood Tints and shades Grass Electric blue Natural material
 
#24 ·
Got most of the interior patches done and fixed the bench that is near the transom. Still need to reinforce the floor and the benches, but that should only take one layer of cloth. While I was waiting for the patches to cure, I started looking at the livewell. Do these livewells need a pump to aerate the water or do you just allow water to flow into it from the drain hole and that keeps it aerated? Never used a livewell before, so this is new for me. Any thoughts?

Wall Wood Window Gas Tints and shades
 
#28 · (Edited)
Wow, thanks so much for the info! I'll definitely be referring back to this in the future!

Since I've used the polyester resin for all the patches so far, I'll probably keep using it to keep it uniform for this Gheenoe. (Will use epoxy in the future if I decide to take on another project ;)) It doesn't have very many things to patch left anyway.

I was looking at Raka Epoxy and was thinking about getting some for the transom, so that the plywood and the fiberglass adhere well to each other. Is the 127 Low Viscosity Resin what everyone uses? I saw raka.com had a couple of different options (they are also offering 10% off), but DuckWorks only sells the 127, and I assume that's what most people use.

Regarding the fiberglass cloth, I've been using 0.2mm thick cloth (which I think is like 0.8-0.9 oz) since that was what was at my local hardware store. However, I've noticed that there are varying thicknesses (4oz, 6oz, 10oz, etc.). What thickness does everyone use? Could I get thicker cloth and do less layers? For my patches, I've been doing like 3 layers of Fiberglass Mat and 2 Layers of Fiberglass cloth. By upgrading the thickness, I could reduce the layers, right? Does anyone even use FB Mat? (I ask because places like raka.com and DuckWorks only sell cloth).

Can I use TotalBoats epoxy fairing compound over the patches that were cured with polyester resin, or will it not go well? Wasn't sure if any negative chemical reactions would occur.
 
#29 ·
Wow, thanks so much for the info! I'll definitely be referring back to this in the future!

Since I've used the polyester resin for all the patches so far, I'll probably keep using it to keep it uniform for this Gheenoe. (Will use epoxy in the future if I decide to take on another project ;)) It doesn't have very many things to patch left anyway.

I was looking at Raka Epoxy and was thinking about getting some for the transom, so that the plywood and the fiberglass adhere well to each other. Is the 127 Low Viscosity Resin what everyone uses? I saw raka.com had a couple of different options (they are also offering 10% off), but DuckWorks only sells the 127, and I assume that's what most people use.

Regarding the fiberglass cloth, I've been using 0.2mm thick cloth (which I think is like 0.8-0.9 oz) since that was what was at my local hardware store. However, I've noticed that there are varying thicknesses (4oz, 6oz, 10oz, etc.). What thickness does everyone use? Could I get thicker cloth and do less layers? For my patches, I've been doing like 3 layers of Fiberglass Mat and 2 Layers of Fiberglass cloth. By upgrading the thickness, I could reduce the layers, right? Does anyone even use FB Mat? (I ask because places like raka.com and DuckWorks only sell cloth).

Can I use
TotalBoats epoxy fairing compound over the patches that were cured with polyester resin, or will it not go well? Wasn't sure if any negative chemical reactions would occur.
eblox04, yes ... any time you introduce wood into what you are working with use EPOXY because polyester does not play well with wood(refer back to my previous post for the procedure for adhering the wood to the glass transom)

the thinner resin seeps into the wood fibers much better to provide a tenacious hold

the 4oz cloth is what the ultra-lite folks use adding minimal weight

the 6oz stuff is what most smaller to medium sized plywood boatbuilders use

and that 10oz stuff is for extreme strength and abrasion issues when no regard is paid to weight

matting is a way to add thickness for le$$ while keeping w/ the same chemistry

your layering method is not wrong and heavier thicknesses of material are not as easy to saturate

when laying your cloth make sure to rotate the thread pattern to diagonally to end up with all threads crossing the area

again lining the cloth pattern only takes advantage of 1/2 the threads in either way when aligned @ 90º

Handwriting Gesture Font Drawing Parallel


there is an old saying ... you can epoxy over polyester butt not polyester over epoxy

i have never tried polyester over epoxy so i can't verify this saying

and i haven't bought/used/even had any polyester resin in well over 30 years

once i started using epoxy and found out how easy and predictable it is that was it for polyester

epoxy is what i used with my middle school shop students finally relegating all measuring and mixing to the kids for our boatbuilding projects

if country middle schoolers can't mess something up it'z virtually bomb proof IMHO

as for TOTAL BOAT brand fairing compound you can make your own fairing compound using RAKA and wood flour mixed into a heavy slurry or even a putty thickness to achieve similar results for much le$$

some DIYers use TALC(baby powder) and some use WHEAT FLOUR(baking) for thickening epoxy for their fairing compound with very good results

this method does not work with polyester resin and that's likely why the BONDO brand folks make their own proprietary mixture for automotive use which is compatible w/ polyester resin/fiberglassing

BON CHANCE

leon
 
#30 ·
I’ll add to Leon’s excellent advice that you should go to the West System website and download their manual/book on epoxy boat building. Also look at their Epoxyworks collection of fixes, repairs and building. If you follow their directions your project will come out great. Their materials are absolute first rate and their support is outstanding.

 
#31 ·
I’ll add to Leon’s excellent advice that you should go to the West System website and download their manual/book on epoxy boat building. Also look at their Epoxyworks collection of fixes, repairs and building. If you follow their directions your project will come out great. Their materials are absolute first rate and their support is outstanding.

Hank, knot2 mention you can simply call them and a real person WILL answer

they seem to always have an expert on hand to talk with folks about EPOXY

leon
 
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