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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
As @Chris Morejohn just pointed out on some failures of a Conchfish being hit at 100 mph.. so here are more observations from closer pictures etc.

Though I feel CM might think I came off as an ass in my question in his post, I was asking a legitimate question. he posted the pictures of the CF and my discussion here is for people to learn from.

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1. Shows a single layer of glass that went across the cap from the transom sheared off. And also some separation.
2. Shows the transom glass going over the core.
3. Shows engine well that is glassed and has seperated.
4. More separation of tape.
5. Shows the bulkhead in which it separated from the force
6. Crack in the keel, 8 layers of 1208 for extra protection for jimmy running aground. Also near the keel, a perfectly straight crack through 4 layers.
7. A single layer of 1208 is still fully attached to the core, however the 1708 tape has seperated due to poor bonding against the 1208.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Also a lot of manufacturers only use silicone and screws to mount the cap to hulls.

@Boatbrains has a lot of knowledge and also recommended before this happened to go even “stronger” by glassing all of the cap inside to the hull.
 

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Clearly Travis you built an amazing boat! I think all the fumes from building boats has caused CM to lose his filter. My 93 yr old Grandmother is the same way, I mean I love her to death, but sometimes I wonder if she knows how what she saying is coming off
 

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Like others have said. It looks like you did a good job, but I’ve never seen a (metal) vehicle in a high speed police chase cruise away after an impact with another vehicle... let alone fibers and glue. Don’t take it personally, but maybe as positive criticism to move forward. I doubt any other Conchfish will make headline news like BC16’s
 

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By no means am I a boat builder but I will say I was talking to a close friend not long after the accident (actually member on this forum as well with a lot of knowledge in the industry) and the first thing he specifically mentioned was Cm’s point #1 and many of the others.
Sorry your feelings were hurt by the guy who literally designed the boat you are building
At the end of the day it is spilt milk and the boat would’ve been totaled anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
By no means are my feelings hurt. This is a learning experience for us all.

However, I will say, the original plans for the skiff and it has been said to “glue” the cap. No mention of glassing it in. However recent drawings show there being glass..


But you HB gurus, I’d rather get stress cracks on a 10k skiff that does the same than a 50k HB. And yes, I have seen them with stress cracks. Not to mention other things from them.
 

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But you HB gurus, I’d rather get stress cracks on a 10k skiff that does the same than a 50k HB. And yes, I have seen them with stress cracks. Not to mention other things from them.
Couldn’t agree more but wouldn’t say I am a hells bay guru. I am just wearing a free hells bay buff in my avatar. I was actually fishing on my 1978 11’ Boston whaler my dad and I restored when I was a kid. I fished it until 4 years ago when I bought my salt marsh as an 11’ skiff was a little tight for a family of 4.
 

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I guess I'll chime in--I'm the one Mr. Lindsley referenced. Since this thread was started as a reference for others building and repairing their skiffs, I'll offer constructive criticism under the assumption this is NOT going to turn into a shitshow of a giant, dick-slinging contest. I'm also a harsh HB critic (actually, I'm pretty harsh about most boats)--not sure where that puts me. To be clear, I'm not a fanboy for anyone.

I will reference the items based on the numbers on the photos Travis provided above. I will also ask some questions--if answers are provided for said questions, I can elaborate. Before I begin, I will acknowledge the sentiment that any other vessel involved in the accident would have faced a similar fate. This situation sucks all around. I cannot speak to Chris Morejohn's concerns, but mine were based not on the fact the hull failed, rather the types of failures exposed. I hope everyone can understand and appreciate the difference. CM has already addressed the bonding putty issues so I will not elaborate on those further. I will focus on cosmetic failures not related to the crash and the lamination failures that stuck out to me.

In nearly every photo where you can zoom in on undamaged coating which I'm assuming to be gel based on the thickness(especially evident on photo 6 with green straps) there are quite a few craters and blisters. These are formed from the outgasing of either; a) the coating itself, or b) the laminate underneath with a rapidly curing topcoat applied too early. If it's the latter, it's just a timing issue and is easy to correct, but based on the build thread for this boat, I do not think that it is the case. If it's item 'a' then I would want to know what thinners and additives were used with the gel? What thickness was it applied to each coat? Was the temperature rising or falling? These can all cause that problem and be addressed by different measures.

On photos 4, 5, and the previously mentioned 6, the delamination is incredibly clean. What I mean by that is the fabrics separated in their entirety without pulling or damaging the next layup. For me, this is the major structural issue I see in this build. It is caused by either; a) not laying up the layers soon enough, or b) not prepping between the layers. Here, the resin system used comes into play as it affects the timelines for allowable subsequent layups. It's acceptable to have days or weeks even pass between laying another layer, but it must be ground or sanded heavily to promote proper adhesion. While this project did use 08 fabrics which do have CSM, they need to be laid up in fairly rapid succession to get a good bond and close the voids in the CSM-to-directional glass layup. If that time table is not met, then you will still require regular CSM. The reason for this is the CSM stitched to the directional fabric cannot free "float" during lamination--it's held in place by the stitching and needs the pliability of the layers on both sides of it (i.e. wet layers). That is why molded boats still get at least a layer of veil or 3/4 oz. CSM before other fabrics come into play.

Please let me know if further explanation is needed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I guess I'll chime in--I'm the one Mr. Lindsley referenced. Since this thread was started as a reference for others building and repairing their skiffs, I'll offer constructive criticism under the assumption this is NOT going to turn into a shitshow of a giant, dick-slinging contest. I'm also a harsh HB critic (actually, I'm pretty harsh about most boats)--not sure where that puts me. To be clear, I'm not a fanboy for anyone.

I will reference the items based on the numbers on the photos Travis provided above. I will also ask some questions--if answers are provided for said questions, I can elaborate. Before I begin, I will acknowledge the sentiment that any other vessel involved in the accident would have faced a similar fate. This situation sucks all around. I cannot speak to Chris Morejohn's concerns, but mine were based not on the fact the hull failed, rather the types of failures exposed. I hope everyone can understand and appreciate the difference. CM has already addressed the bonding putty issues so I will not elaborate on those further. I will focus on cosmetic failures not related to the crash and the lamination failures that stuck out to me.

In nearly every photo where you can zoom in on undamaged coating which I'm assuming to be gel based on the thickness(especially evident on photo 6 with green straps) there are quite a few craters and blisters. These are formed from the outgasing of either; a) the coating itself, or b) the laminate underneath with a rapidly curing topcoat applied too early. So I’m not sure if we will be referring to same place or not but the boat was primed and painted probably within 24 hours of one another. This also was within 48 hours of the wreck. @Chris Beutel can chime in bc he assisted with it. If it's the latter, it's just a timing issue and is easy to correct, but based on the build thread for this boat, I do not think that it is the case. If it's item 'a' then I would want to know what thinners and additives were used with the gel? Inside was gelcoated inside hatch areas. Not sure on thickness as o didn’t use a gauge.What thickness was it applied to each coat? Interlux perfection was used. Which was refunded due to the fact we had an issue with it drying, but It was the top side that didn’t want to dry.Was the temperature rising or falling? Yes sir temp was up and down. These can all cause that problem and be addressed by different measures.

On photos 4, 5, and the previously mentioned 6, the delamination is incredibly clean. What I mean by that is the fabrics separated in their entirety without pulling or damaging the next layup. For me, this is the major structural issue I see in this build. It is caused by either; a) not laying up the layers soon enough, or b) not prepping between the layers. It was a first for me using an ester resin. How I prepped was if it wasn’t wet on wet. I sanded with 40 or 80, whatever I had on hand, until I see fibers. Dust blew out and wiped down with acetone. Here, the resin system used comes into play as it affects the timelines for allowable subsequent layups. It's acceptable to have days or weeks even pass between laying another layer, but it must be ground or sanded heavily to promote proper adhesion. While this project did use 08 fabrics which do have CSM, they need to be laid up in fairly rapid succession to get a good bond and close the voids in the CSM-to-directional glass layup. If that time table is not met, then you will still require regular CSM. The reason for this is the CSM stitched to the directional fabric cannot free "float" during lamination--I am glad to know this. CM also mentioned it about adding another layer of csm a week or two ago.it's held in place by the stitching and needs the pliability of the layers on both sides of it (i.e. wet layers). That is why molded boats still get at least a layer of veil or 3/4 oz. CSM before other fabrics come into play.

Please let me know if further explanation is needed.
I quoted your comment and placed comments within it.


Thank you for your comments. Feel free to comment. Or PM me for stuff that you may not want to put out on here.

Iam a epoxy/ wooden skiff guy. But I got an allergy to epoxy.
 

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I quoted your comment and placed comments within it.


Thank you for your comments. Feel free to comment. Or PM me for stuff that you may not want to put out on here.

Iam a epoxy/ wooden skiff guy. But I got an allergy to epoxy.
Amine and BPA (bisphenol A) exposures are no joke. There's a dude asking about tying materials on another thread. Remember the baby bottle deal from 10 years ago? It was all due to BPA leaching. Just because the resin doesn't smell, doesn't make it less harmful. A half-face respirator also isn't going to cut it. You can develop sensitivities through exposures to your mucosa. A full-face respirator is needed. You can also get the reactions from undercured and still curing products that you are sanding--which will be all of them. Epoxies are generally engineered with a mix ratio that still allows full hardening without the ratio being spot on. What that means is there will be free portions of one the components that are not catalyzed.

Vinylesters and polyesters will continue to cure until all of the MEKP and styrene crosslinks. This can go on for months, though it is improving with low VOC resins. Other stuff below in red.

"In nearly every photo where you can zoom in on undamaged coating which I'm assuming to be gel based on the thickness(especially evident on photo 6 with green straps) there are quite a few craters and blisters. These are formed from the outgasing of either; a) the coating itself, or b) the laminate underneath with a rapidly curing topcoat applied too early. So I’m not sure if we will be referring to same place or not but the boat was primed and painted probably within 24 hours of one another. This also was within 48 hours of the wreck. @Chris Beutel can chime in bc he assisted with it. That's good to know. It's much easier to track problems in paint than in gelcoat. Which products? I'm guessing either the TDS (technical data sheets---read them) wasn't followed or there was some outside contaminant. If Perfection, like below, it's very susceptible to fisheyes and craters on a less than absolutely perfect surface. A comparable product is Pettit Easy-poxy 2. For a bit more money, Nason Fulthane is approaching the levels of hardness and gloss retention that you would find from Imron or Awlgrip for about half the price. If it's the latter, it's just a timing issue and is easy to correct, but based on the build thread for this boat, I do not think that it is the case. If it's item 'a' then I would want to know what thinners and additives were used with the gel? Inside was gelcoated inside hatch areas. Not sure on thickness as o didn’t use a gauge.What thickness was it applied to each coat? Interlux perfection was used. Which was refunded due to the fact we had an issue with it drying, but It was the top side that didn’t want to dry.Was the temperature rising or falling? Yes sir temp was up and down. While a stable temperature is always the best, you can apply on an increasing temperature. You never want to apply on a falling temp for two reasons; a) the dew point is dropping and you could end up with moisture on the surface, and b) the vapor pressure is increasing and will hold the evaporatives outgassing from the coating directly over the coating surface and thus not allowing it to cure. Don't paint at night. Ever. These can all cause that problem and be addressed by different measures.

On photos 4, 5, and the previously mentioned 6, the delamination is incredibly clean. What I mean by that is the fabrics separated in their entirety without pulling or damaging the next layup. For me, this is the major structural issue I see in this build. It is caused by either; a) not laying up the layers soon enough, or b) not prepping between the layers. It was a first for me using an ester resin. How I prepped was if it wasn’t wet on wet. I sanded with 40 or 80, whatever I had on hand, until I see fibers. Sounds good. I typically am a bit more aggressive than that--60 minimum for cosmetic and 36 for structural. There shouldn't be anything glossy in the area AFTER you wipe it down with a sovent. Dust blew out and wiped down with acetone. Acetone has a drying effect on components. It also reacts with MEKP and displaces styrene. You're removing the two monomers you need for crosslinking. Since the resin will have unbonded components in its cured state, it is possible to get a reasonable chemical bond even 7 days later. Sand, blow, layup. Wipe with a moist towel if you must and let it dry. If the surface is contaminated and it must be wiped with a solvent, use styrene. On parts/repairs that are older, I use acetone.
 
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Without doing any Dick slinging:D
No FRP boat would have survived as has been said by most of us already. The resin used was a GP “not boatyard nor laminating” resin which while not top shelf it wasn’t bottom shelf either. Enough time had lapsed between hull lay up and bulkhead & cap bonding/glassing that I doubt an acetone wipe had any effect on the monomers at play. I could be wrong though... @Finsleft258 you are dead on about the paint and following the tds to the letter!:) All said, Travis is a hobby/amateur builder that only knows what he has learned by reading in books/www and what his plans tell him to do and by doing. So again I say to all... let any skiff get hit at over 100mph, come off the trailer, slide down the asphalt and let’s see how it fairs!:)
 

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This made me think. We should drop manufactures skiffs off a crane and see how the hold up as a new segment of the Skiff Challenge! The boat Travis built I'm sure would hold its own.
 
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