Eldora
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·No experience, but I would imagine if weight is close that she performs a whole lot like an early tiller Whip.
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1,803 Posts
I have not be on one, but I took a close look at one at the Boat Show. I think Boatbrains is probably right. Looks like a very early tiller Whipray to me. Very simple skiff. It only weighs 350 lbs. I think the 16' Whipray weighs almost 600 lbs. HB is using Carbon Innegra and vacuum infusing the hull & deck. Guess that's where the weight reduction comes from. Draft is supposed to be less than 4".
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78 Posts
i agree i 2nd the outlaw, it is a nice boat. Chris Morejohn said the eldora hull came out of the same whipray/waterman mold. So it runs, floats and poles just like a whipray. I saw the eldora at icast and it is bare bones. I have a no liner 16' side console waterman, i think the hull weight was claimed #375-395, so i would expect the performace on the pole to be the same.the Hull looks identical to my waterman. i have a 40hp and the eldora has he 25hp so its a little slower. Plenty fast enough for what it is intended to do. i wouldn't want to cross an open bay in it in a decent chop. i dont see um pumping them out, so that should tell you something.
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4,740 Posts
Quick - someone check out the "skiffs for sale" board - for hull #4, tiller etc. - only asking 20k.... for one of the very early no gunnel 16' skiffs...
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466 Posts
Not to derail the topic, but what are they quoting for one of those skiffs?
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I think the Eldora is a sweet minimalist skiff, but just not at that price point. If anyone wants to get me one for Christmas, I sure as hell won't complain.
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1,803 Posts
I think one would notice some differences. Because the Eldora is made with Carbon Integra is quite a bit lighter than that (I think around 275 lbs without the motor). I would put a 35 hp on one.
30 for eldora. Quote today.
24 for Outlaw. Quote last month. No options. Boat motor and trailer with galv RamLin and polling platform. Outlaw has a fixed Alum tank and hatches. Not on Eldora
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546 Posts
The Eldora is for sure made from my original Whipray mold.
When I built Whiprays the lightest they got with a full deck and the 3 hatches without a floor was 375 lbs. rigged with tower,fuel tank. I weighed them. With a floor and console with rigging they could weigh up to 415lbs.
If built in all Carbon you would save 10% of the difference in the cloth weight only. That is just exchanging the 10oz glass cloth and replacing it with carbon. You would then have a different feeling skiff in Carbon, jumpy.
So in weight saving in Carbon it would be around 6-7 lbs. tops.
From the pictures of the Eldora verses my past builds I would say it’s not any lighter, and has way less interior.
We used to hang a fully rigged Whipray from a Chintillion scale at boat shows with the 119 lb Merc 25 tiller on it showing its total weight at 550 lbs with a bit of fuel still in the tank.
Now the Waterman skiffs would weigh a bit less because they had less interior, but did not give the same feel as the real Whipray.
Today everyone thinks an all carbon skiff is the answer. To me it’s not. It’s just takes common sense engineering to build an inexpensive skiff.
If building a one off skiff like the CONCHFISH you can arrive at a way lighter build without using carbon because you don’t end up with the heavier cockpit floor and stern Wells added weights coming from a mold.
If building with Basalt cloth instead of Carbon you get 10% less stiffness than Carbon, a bit more weight in dry cloth weight but over half the price in materials costs verse carbon, but end up with a higher impact hull resistance than using kevlar at twice the cost.
Why someone hasn't made a mold off an old Waterman and built them like I used to at a price of $18,000.00 rigged I can’t figure.
When I built Whiprays the lightest they got with a full deck and the 3 hatches without a floor was 375 lbs. rigged with tower,fuel tank. I weighed them. With a floor and console with rigging they could weigh up to 415lbs.
If built in all Carbon you would save 10% of the difference in the cloth weight only. That is just exchanging the 10oz glass cloth and replacing it with carbon. You would then have a different feeling skiff in Carbon, jumpy.
So in weight saving in Carbon it would be around 6-7 lbs. tops.
From the pictures of the Eldora verses my past builds I would say it’s not any lighter, and has way less interior.
We used to hang a fully rigged Whipray from a Chintillion scale at boat shows with the 119 lb Merc 25 tiller on it showing its total weight at 550 lbs with a bit of fuel still in the tank.
Now the Waterman skiffs would weigh a bit less because they had less interior, but did not give the same feel as the real Whipray.
Today everyone thinks an all carbon skiff is the answer. To me it’s not. It’s just takes common sense engineering to build an inexpensive skiff.
If building a one off skiff like the CONCHFISH you can arrive at a way lighter build without using carbon because you don’t end up with the heavier cockpit floor and stern Wells added weights coming from a mold.
If building with Basalt cloth instead of Carbon you get 10% less stiffness than Carbon, a bit more weight in dry cloth weight but over half the price in materials costs verse carbon, but end up with a higher impact hull resistance than using kevlar at twice the cost.
Why someone hasn't made a mold off an old Waterman and built them like I used to at a price of $18,000.00 rigged I can’t figure.
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78 Posts
Great insight Chris very interesting stuff. Chris can you elaborate on what the feeling difference is between the original whipray and the waterman you mentioned. thanks
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546 Posts
The difference between the Whiprays and all the other hulls built using its hull shape is simple.
They are engineered and marketed differently.
To explain the differences let’s get the names strait first.
The Whipray skiff design stands totally on its own in its original design configuration with an all cored hull, Kevlar skin option that everyone ordered, a full deck with two main hatches and a small baitwell hatch aft.
It had 3 options for steering with the side console it’s first run, then tiller, and eventually a center console.
The floor came standard but could be left out if wanted.
When I came up with what now is most widely known as the Waterman skiff the idea was to use the Whiprays great hull shape and match it with a less costly build both to us the builders and to provide a less expensive skiff to the public.
The Waterman skiff evolved with many name changes starting as the Skate, with other names like the Mosquito Lagoon and then the Waterman skiff.
Tom Gordon bought the Waterman molds after I sold out and renamed theses molds after himself.
So just look at the Gordon skiffs being built using Hells bays molds but built to Toms standards.
Now after this happened someone to me screwed up and to give clout to lesser builds started calling every small skiff at Hells Bay a “Whipray....Waterman,” or “Whipray Pro”.
It’s gotten people very confused because they think they have the Whipray build standard but in reality it was a bait and switch and what they really have is a Waterman build. She might be your momma but he ain’t your daddy kinda thing.
The Watermans build differs in what is left out compared to the Whiprays build. To be cost effective and to show great distinction between the 2 brands I built the Waterman skiffs using 1-1/2 matt and 18oz roving in a hull that had a rolled sheer flange. The core in the hulls only went up to the hulls sides. I needed the core to stiffen the bottom but it was not needed in the topsides. This was to be a basic skiff so a bit of wobble was no big deal.
The rest of the skiff was built like the Whiprays. This type of build without a floor felt when running like a regular skiff. Not as stiff. To me for the price it’s in its simplest build shape the best skiff out there for the $.
But ...... it does not feel anywhere as nice as a full deck floored Whipray when running through a good chop.
Whiprays feel like a real yacht, Watermans feel like a skiff.
The price difference at the time was $21,000.00 for a Whip verse $9850.00 for the Waterman.
Everyone wanted the Watermans price but the Whiprays build. Hence the bait and switch later on with adding the Whiprays name to lesser skiffs builds. Both great skiffs weather built by HB or Tom Gordon.
I feel the mistake lots builders have made is to keep trying to compete with the Whiprays mystique instead of looking at what a whole lot of the public can really afford. Outboard manufacturers could care less what the engine is hanging on. Same as the hardware, glass people.
Mel and Erin have figured it out though. So has Harvey Geen.
Beaver tail made a direct splash off a Pros hull. They lost the copyright suit but to my 2and hand knowledge HB had to pay them a good sum to destroy the molds. Too much competition.
HB also bought out Tom because of the competition and confusion.
I would have never spent a cent on either, just would have kept on building to my specs and kept up my customer relations.
To build a splash don’t copy the hull exactly. Just add to it’s length by an inch and add a styling change to it.
On the Whipray hull just extend the lower reverse spray strake by 4-5”. Now you have a different design.
The Whiprays hull was designed by me before Hells Bay was started. I handed my design to Hal and we started HB. Because it’s hull shape was never copyrighted in its first year its always been known as “ public knowledge”.
Lots of skiffs out here today have borrowed ideas from past skiffs. I for one write about my history of past influences.
I feel all my designs are very original though, and I feel in the market place today that the new Beavertails are totally original designs too along with Harvey’s.
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