[Chris Morejohn]

I will be using this material to build my next skiff with. From what I have been told it’s way more abrasive resistant than kevlar, has way better impact resistance than kevlar and is about midway between Eglass and carbon in stiffness. It’s Ecco friendly because it does not have to be chemically made like the other fabrics. It’s very cost competitive compared to carbon and Kevlar.
Be the first kid on the boat ramp to say...” yea my skiffs made out of melted Lava”

 

[FireTurtle]

Nice! That will be fun to learn about from your progress.

 

[jglidden]

View attachment 79302

 

[Rookiemistake]

Ill do it......
Whats the weight diffrence?

 

[jmrodandgun]

Ill do it......
Whats the weight diffrence?

Compared to glass It's right about 1/10th of a gram per cubic centimeter heavier than eglass and 2/10th's heavier than s2 glass. It's significantly heavier than kevlar per cubic centimeter but I don't know anything about lay up and how the different proprieties come together to make a strong piece of material.

 

[K3anderson]

The question should be, how much resin does it hold. That's where the weight comes from, isn't it? Isn't that the benefit of carbon? Less resin=less weight?

 

[Sublime]

@Chris Morejohn

When do you think you'll have a laminate schedule using this material?

 

[Pole Position]

Sounds like this stuff may be the answer to all the mysterious oyster rashes I seem to get...

 

[East Cape]

I'll reply in short. The fabric and vail flow ok but it does use more resin...
For fire retardant/heat areas this is GREAT! This and two other types of materials we've been playing with. IMHO it's hard to beat pure fabrics over hybrids that others are now into. Good to see others looking deeper into alternate composites.
~ Kevin

 

[Chris Morejohn]

Thanks for the insight Kevin,
What I like about it’s possibilities is that it’s ecco friendly. Combined with infusion skiff builders would be helping the environment out a bit more.
I like the part that because it’s made of Rock when grinding you possibly wont be getting as itchy because it’s not glass fibers.
In one-off skiff building it could be an answer to the outside skins for abrasion resistance. Kevlar does nothing for this other than puff up.
I will let you know what I experience as I start to work with it this fall.

 

[East Cape]

Thanks for the insight Kevin,
What I like about its possibilities is that it’s eco friendly. Combined with infusion skiff builders would be helping the environment out a bit more.
I like the part that because it’s made of Rock when grinding you possibly won't be getting as itchy because it’s not glass fibers.
In one-off skiff building, it could be an answer to the outside skins for abrasion resistance. Kevlar does nothing for this other than puff up.
I will let you know what I experience as I start to work with it this fall.

I agree on the environment with the added benefit to the infusion aspect. But if it uses more resin than typical with the added costs of the material itself, plus resin, it makes it difficult to use.
Now with the Kevlar, we work the bag while it 60% pulled before we pull 100%
Doing this gets the pleats out and not needing sanding/peel-ply to the areas you want to finish.
We have also been using a "DRY" skin coat as well over the typical open mold via chop/mat that many been doing for years. We find less resin use, lighter part, easier lay up and better for the earth...
And without hyping the latest ubber dubber space age material...LOL

 

[Chris Morejohn]

I agree on the environment with the added benefit to the infusion aspect. But if it uses more resin than typical with the added costs of the material itself, plus resin, it makes it difficult to use.
Now with the Kevlar, we work the bag while it 60% pulled before we pull 100%
Doing this gets the pleats out and not needing sanding/peel-ply to the areas you want to finish.
We have also been using a "DRY" skin coat as well over the typical open mold via chop/mat that many been doing for years. We find less resin use, lighter part, easier lay up and better for the earth...
And without hyping the latest ubber dubber space age material...LOL

Kevin,
What I find is if building a one off skiff like I am pushing with my design plans is that you have way more control over final weight in the build over conventional molded builds if built properly.
In production building there can be lots of added weight using hatch liners, cockpit liners and on and on.
The thing that gets my attention with the possibility’s of stuff like this is when building a one off skiff you can very easily build a skiff lighter than an infused all carbon production build because you can leave out all the Extra materials needed for the above mentioned parts. The one-off builder can fair and paint and save weight.
I feel that Kevlar needs to be in muiltple layers to offer any impact resistance. Same thing with the Basalt cloth. To get enough layers into a skiffs hull defeats the purpose in the first place.
In a one-off build though a combination of materials and proper engineering of laminates can result in a finished hull that can weigh right there with an all carbon hull and in the end most likely won’t feel as jumpy as an all carbon build.
This will be fun to see how it goes.

 

[manny2376]

As a self proclaimed skiff nerd, that was an amazing exchange to read! Thank you both for sharing on this forum!

 

[East Cape]

Kevin,
What I find is if building a one off skiff like I am pushing with my design plans is that you have way more control over final weight in the build over conventional molded builds if built properly.
In production building there can be lots of added weight using hatch liners, cockpit liners and on and on.
The thing that gets my attention with the possibility’s of stuff like this is when building a one off skiff you can very easily build a skiff lighter than an infused all carbon production build because you can leave out all the Extra materials needed for the above mentioned parts. The one-off builder can fair and paint and save weight.
I feel that Kevlar needs to be in muiltple layers to offer any impact resistance. Same thing with the Basalt cloth. To get enough layers into a skiffs hull defeats the purpose in the first place.
In a one-off build though a combination of materials and proper engineering of laminates can result in a finished hull that can weigh right there with an all carbon hull and in the end most likely won’t feel as jumpy as an all carbon build.
This will be fun to see how it goes.

I'll keep this reply short and say I disagree with you on one-off/home builder vs. a company. Good arguments can be had for both sides.
The main reason is the variables all come into play on each side of this equally...

I can't speak for other builders but if a customer comes to us and wants a non-linear, no-frills boat we will build that boat. Other than their time where do they save and gain a better built boat?
The other point you mention on "proper engineering of laminates" can also be had on the company side making that just as equal. And lastly, all things considered, the company through repetitive steps will produce a better laminate as the home-builder is in a learning phase/stage.

But again, it will come out to the person doing it and neither really has an edge over the other IMHO.
A home built boat will save you money but cost you time...

The result of how long you build that boat will give you the end result of what you built.
Good topic for sure but this topic and replies comes to more of an opinion IMHO

Cheers!
Kevin

 

[fjmaverick]

How do you account for the change in ride when the boat weighs 1/10th the normal design? I recall seeing a stepped hull boat made out of Carbon that road significantly different than the fiberglass version because of the reduced weight and draft. It was like the free board was way out of the water and the steps weren't even functional.

 

[jay.bush1434]

This is very cool. I like seeing the technology develop with boat building. I come from a racing sailboat background and the highest quality custom builders have been building race boats with pre-preg carbon fiber, vaccuum bagged, and autoclave cured hulls for years. The power boat market seem to be playing catch up. That being said, there is a point where you need some weight in a hull to make it ride comfortably and push the water out of the way as opposed to riding like a surfboard. I can tell you that while those all carbon sailboats were fast (for sailboats) they had very jerky motions when it was choppy. The other issue is cost of the build. How many folks would actually spend the money to have a 17 or 18' skiff made that way? I'd guess and easy $120k for a basic build. So for the business, there has to be a point where we can get almost the same performance out of a glass build vs carbon/kevlar/basalt etc and only charge $60k for the same skiff.
As an old boss of mine used to say, "good, fast, cheap- pick two...)

 

[Smackdaddy53]

At speed I really don’t think a hull that weighs 100 pounds more will draft much more than a lighter one but it will have the “ass” to handle the chop better. I have experienced this first hand with larger hulls (26’) that were made 350 pounds lighter and rode so much rougher it was not really worth the weight savings versus loss in ride quality. There must be more rigidity to a CF hull over Carbon/Kevlar right? Wouldn’t the added rigidity coupled with being lighter cause a loss in ride comfort in chop? I’m thinking along the lines of hull flex acting as a buffer. Poling skiffs should in theory be poled more than run on plane so I can see where an inch of draft could be great but at what cost? I have been running a Whipray 17.8 the last couple of weeks and have to honestly say I prefer my HPX Tunnel even in chop. Maybe I just got used to the Maverick but I’m not quite sure I can see where the rough water capability is any better. If it is, it’s very marginal. Maybe the 90 needs to be swapped to my 70TLR? We’re about to find out.
Very interesting topic. I have still not set foot on a Chittum.

 

[Chris Morejohn]

Kevin, and all.
I started this thread to share to possibility’s of another type of cloth that might work in this market. If the cloth could dampen noise that could be very useful. If it does not itche so much when working with it compared to eglass cloth that would be nice. The uses are there for the trying, testing out. I will this fall on my next one-off build.
I have said here before that the quality of a home build one off skiff depends on the builder. With a good set of plans with a proven hull shape and some time to set aside then I feel most anyone can build a skiff that can be as good or better than a store bought skiff. Some of the guys that have started skiff building company’s started their careers building a skiff this way as a one off.
One example I give of building a one off being possibly a better skiff than store bought skiffs is the trend today of skiff companies installing so much hardware in the hulls before the deck goes on. All those hose clamps that can never be reached again because they are hidden in places that can only be reached by cutting the newish skiff to pieces. In a well thought out build this will never need to happen.
The cool thing about one off building is the build is totally in your control. Skiff building is not hard, it just takes one step at a time.
Men build fishing rods, tie flys, repair their trucks, build decks, houses, weld aluminum I can go on. America is full of excellant craftsman just needing a proven hull shape a good set of plans and some information to build custom skiffs to suit their needs.

I too am a sailor and have sailed many miles in all carbon sailboats. They are very strong and light. Sailing is different than standing on the deck of a small 17’8” skiff with a waterline of 15’9”. Just look at today’s trend in having a bunch of aluminum contraptions on the bow and stern to keep people from not falling overboard.
When sailing you are going through a ton of gyrations sailing over the seas at all angles. Your goal is to go as fast as possible to win and to not get thrown overboard. It’s a sport that can be very fun. But very wearing.
When building a one off skiff you can dial in what you want your skiff to weigh by making a list of your goals in advance. All my designs from the past 36 years can benefit from being as light as what works with the final load needs. This means they and most other skiffs that have some weight to them feel better running in a chop. It’s obvious. Now take the perceived need to float as shallow as possible. So you build the skiff as light as possible and strong enough to take the strain. Then you add your weight needs to it from that bigger engine you think you need to all the gear. Then add your real weight. Your buddies weight. If you jump into one skiff to the other and want the heavy skiffs ride but want the 400lb skiff to pole around in.... well you have to do what I suggest at times is to have two skiffs. Tow the real skiff for fishing with the dream skiff with all the stuff on it. Or just be realistic. It’s all a compromise.
Look at my skiff hull lines plans. They have the displacement calculations on them for each inch of submersion. When you see you are at 1438lbs at 7” this means you need to add up your weight-wish list
To see where your real draft will, could be. Would be cool to see this on all the other builders spec sheets. Kind of like looking at the calories at McDonalds.

Aside from saving enough cash to buy a new car outright when building your own skiff you get the satisfaction of the final product.
I built my 38’ sailboat at HB while I was building, designing and selling skiffs there in my after hours.
It cost me $35,000.00 to get her launched and ready to live aboard. 20 years, 36,000 ocean miles, and 36 counties visited later and she still makes me smile as she saved me years of extra time earning the cash to buy a store bought boat.

I will let you all know what I find out with this material as I go along

 

[DuckNut]

@Chris Morejohn
I was telling @Boatbrains about this fabric a couple months ago.

I experimented with it a few years ago and I feel it is closer to S glass than E. When made into a panel there is a totally different sound to it. It sounds like a thud vs a ping.

I scuffed up a piece of panel so I could get it to fray and then soaked in water for 5 days. It absorbed exactly 0 grams (scale was 3 decimal places).

There is no doubt there is benefits to it but those currently are outweighed due to cloth choices and width. Never seen it wider than 36. The biggest disappointment is that it is very difficult to source. I had to order from Scandanavia (or somewhere like that) and I don't know of anyone who carries it. However, you can buy some small squares off ebay that guys use to make a carbon fiber effect. The cost makes it a bit prohibitive as there are 2 companies in the world who make it, all of it is sold as a pre-packaged product. Processing is less intense and price should be less than glass, but it is not.

I tried to get the owner of Raka to start sourcing it and he was open to it and started down that road but found it too difficult and eventually focused his energy elsewhere.

I think boatbrains was going to buy some and start testing it.

 

[Chris Morejohn]

@Chris Morejohn
I was telling @Boatbrains about this fabric a couple months ago.

I experimented with it a few years ago and I feel it is closer to S glass than E. When made into a panel there is a totally different sound to it. It sounds like a thud vs a ping.

I scuffed up a piece of panel so I could get it to fray and then soaked in water for 5 days. It absorbed exactly 0 grams (scale was 3 decimal places).

There is no doubt there is benefits to it but those currently are outweighed due to cloth choices and width. Never seen it wider than 36. The biggest disappointment is that it is very difficult to source. I had to order from Scandanavia (or somewhere like that) and I don't know of anyone who carries it. However, you can buy some small squares off ebay that guys use to make a carbon fiber effect. The cost makes it a bit prohibitive as there are 2 companies in the world who make it, all of it is sold as a pre-packaged product. Processing is less intense and price should be less than glass, but it is not.

I tried to get the owner of Raka to start sourcing it and he was open to it and started down that road but found it too difficult and eventually focused his energy elsewhere.

I think boatbrains was going to buy some and start testing it.

What interests me is the sound deadening effect as apposed to a carbon hull. Also the abrasion resistance.
Look at the info I posted here. I got an email back from the guy listed and they have 10 oz. cloth equivalent in 39-1/2” widths which is not bad. I have built skiffs in the past out of 12” Wide S glass and it was not too time consuming. I have pictures of a client trying to shoot a bullet through a test Panel. Bullet bounced off. The eglass panel it went right trough. The info above is based out of Texas.