2nd amendment

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by topnative2, Feb 19, 2012.

  1. topnative2

    topnative2 Well-Known Member

    Just something to ponder .............

    As the Supreme Court hears arguments for and against the Chicago, IL, Gun Ban, I offer you another stellar example of a letter (written by a Marine), that places the proper perspective on what a gun means to a civilized society.

    Interesting take and one you don't hear much... Read this eloquent and profound letter and pay close attention to the last paragraph of the letter.....

    "The Gun Is Civilization"

    By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

    The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society. But, a firearm makes it easier for an armed mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat - it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.

    People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

    Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

    People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force, watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier, works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

    The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply would not work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...And that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act !!

    By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)

    So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded,never forced !!

    This is worth printing and sharing with others.......right?

    Remember freedom is not free.

  2. Gramps

    Gramps Living & Dying in 3/4 Time

    Good read. Thanks for sharing!

  3. kennethbkeys

    kennethbkeys I Love microskiff.com!

    your quote" so the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced" reminds me of Archie Bunker's solution to air piracy " pass out the pistols to all the passengers as they board the plane." brilliant!
  4. topnative2

    topnative2 Well-Known Member

    Everybody but you.
    Now does that change the perspective. :)
  5. kennethbkeys

    kennethbkeys I Love microskiff.com!

  6. Brett

    Brett > PRO STAFF <

    There has always been predators and prey.
    Successful predators always choose the weakest to attack.
    A weak predator deciding to attack a stronger animal, doesn't live long.
    It's a behavior hammered into the DNA of the survivors of millennia of life.
    It is a fact of existence, no law written by man will change that fact.
    There are those that eat, and those that are eaten. From the smallest to the largest,
    from the least to the most intelligent, in life you're either predator or prey, no exceptions.

    The rule of predation applies to people, as individuals, groups,  and nations.
    It is what we are and why we behave as we do. Laws are created in an attempt
    to control the more voracious types of human behavior, but can not prevent them.
    Laws exist only to state what is acceptable to the society and the consequences
    that will result from being caught failing to adhere to those established norms.
    The operative term there is "being caught". If the reward is great enough and the risk
    is minor in comparison, or ignored, most any predatory or destructive behavior
    will occur. It is who we are and how we behave. There will always be predators
    who will ignore or twist society's rules for personal benefit, as individuals or groups,
    as tribes or governments.

    How do you deal with such a predator when it enters your life?
    Expose your throat and hope it doesn't hurt much when it's torn out?
    No, not if you plan to survive. You do what it takes to stay alive,
    and to protect what is most important to your existence. Humans have
    always needed weapons for hunting and defense of life and home.
    We don't have massive claws or canines, no horns, antlers or venom
    so we created tools that allowed us to be stronger than the other predators
    in the natural world, keeping us from being only prey. That's what projectile
    weapons are, tools that allow us to survive in a world where we aren't the strongest,
    toughest or the fastest. Tools that give us an edge over other predators
    by making us more dangerous to them, than they are to us. Tools that
    increase the risk to the predator and make it decide to look elsewhere.

    That is what the second amendment is about. The right to bear arms
    was written into the constitution to define an acceptable behavior in this society.
    To allow an individual to own and carry a weapon for the defense of  life,
    home, and country. To deter predators from making us, as a people or individuals,
    into prey. It is a law written to deter predation by governments, groups or individuals
    who are willing to ignore the consequences or twist the laws for personal benefit.

    just my thoughts, Brett
  7. floridanative1028

    floridanative1028 I Love microskiff.com!

    Amen brother. The great equalizer.
  8. oysterbreath

    oysterbreath Well-Known Member

    Good one Brett. I agree but here is another take on it. I love the second but i also reconize that there are some men out there who are, for the lack of a better word, biiiiiiitches. They lack the fighting skill that any real man would aquire in life and defer to the gun, not as a last resort but as a front line weopon of choise. My thought, if you are hot headed and like to get physical with others. Do expect to one day meet your match. Take the azz beating like a man and leave the gun holstered. If you can't fight, then stick to verbal deplomacy. I hate it when punks start trouble, then reach for their gun as if THEY are the victom. I've personally experienced this sort of b.s. if you can't fight DONT start a fight just cause you have a gun at the moment. There are a lot of lambs out there that think carrying a gun means they can act like a wolf. Sheep dog out!
  9. Brett

    Brett > PRO STAFF <

    Oyster, there is no law that will prevent people from being stupid.
    The stupid usually die young, and the truly stupid take someone else with them when they go.
    There is no law that forces anyone to obey the rules of our society, only fear of the consequences
    of being caught after breaking those rules. If you're not caught, then you can do as you please.
    Laws do not make life safe, there is no such thing as "fair" and justice is rarely achieved.
    You get what you get, deal with it. That is why there's a second amendment. You are given the right
    to own a weapon to defend yourself from all dangers as you perceive them. After the fact, your actions
    may be questioned. You may face the consequences of your decision, if your decision was made in error,
    as defined by the laws that our country is based upon, but only if you get caught.

    I saw a bumper sticker recently...Better being judged by twelve, than carried by six.

    another one read...When seconds count, remember that the police are only minutes away.
  10. oysterbreath

    oysterbreath Well-Known Member

    I don't disagree with you at all Brett. I'm just saying, that sometimes when SHEEP act like WOLVES they get hurt when they attack the SHEEP DOG. What pisses me off is when these dang wanna-bes realize they've picked with the wrong one they try to act as if THEY are the victim in the case. I'm not referring to any recent events either just to make myself clear. Just some events from my own personal past.
  11. Brett

    Brett > PRO STAFF <

    I hear you oyster.
    You've described the difference in behavior between an adult and a child.

  12. oysterbreath

    oysterbreath Well-Known Member

    Some children are of the 40year old variety! lol
  13. floridanative1028

    floridanative1028 I Love microskiff.com!

    I hear what oyster is saying and I agree %100. However, I think man gets into 2 types of physical altercations which should be handled differently. One being the kind you can either shrug off or fight for the respect you feel you deserve, and the other being the one you are forced into by a bad decision made by someone else and you are left with no choice but to fight. The second one is the one the courts need to remember and they should also know that any asshole with a shovel, machete, baseball bat, knife, and a number of other legal things can be equally as deadly when armed with bad intentions.
  14. Recidivists

    Recidivists Looking towards the weekend!

    A bare fist can break jawbone, fracture orbits, and even skulls.  Violence, in any form, always has consequence.  I don't fish Texas borders and don't plan to.   I am also fit enough (not overweight and don't smoke cigars) to run like hell.  Will there be a gun with me sometimes?  Yes.  But I'd rather use it to kill pythons in the Everglades, leaving their putrid carcasses as carion for the vultures.  I will never pull a weapon first.  Leave bravado to skilled military and LE types who like to brag about it at any given chance.

    Heaven forbid the day when any of us HAVE to kill another human being.  Even LE types are only marginally accurate in a fire fight (way less than ten percent when over 7 yards--and about 17 to 20% hit rate at 3-7 yards), and those of us who don't blow a hundred bucks on ammo every week are even less accurate.  I'm spouting about hit rates, not center body mass.  LE should have weapons drawn when threatened, but a civilian might encounter higher escalation without backup if that were to happen.

    What keeps a human alive in Brett's society of social darwinism is his intelligence.  Use it people! We are not Pavlovian animals.

    And yes, I support the right to bear arms.  But beware, I will one day be on that jury of twelve.  Ethics are unique to humans.
  15. Recidivists

    Recidivists Looking towards the weekend!

    And sorry top, but Major Caudill forgot the most driving force behind man's motivation for persuasion:  greed.  Money, or the love thereof, may be construed as an argument to some, but for me it is the purest of evils, never to enter in the argument of the worth of a fellow's life. 

    My adjustment from idealist to jaded cynic is always in transition.  I'm always in a grey area when it concerns people.

    That being said, I agree with Caudill. 

    It doesn't prevent the satellite controlled drone from obliterating your village.  Hell, now our future aerial fighters are going to be AI.  Gone are the days of admiring aviation wonders.

    The amendment was meant to protect the people from their government, with the latest armament. 

    Now, we are truly oppressed.  You can not compete with the congressional military industrial complex (as per Eisenhower's original warning speach).

    Warfare was intimate once.  Never honorable, but accountable.

    Wait for it, press a button.  Now we just kill.  AAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!
  16. Recidivists

    Recidivists Looking towards the weekend!

    ^^^^^^Sorry guys; drunken posting last night.

    I just don't want more untrained people with weapons out there. Recommendations to carry or saying something to the effect of "I carry everywhere, even while swimming," may influence someone to do it unprepared. If you must carry, please take a tactical weapons training course, or two, or three, etc. Shooting at paper and having to draw on someone are two different things.
  17. Gonefishin

    Gonefishin Since retiring, I live to fish!

    Very interesting letter by Maj Caudill USMC ret. I respect the views of all who responded, and I believe most have valid points even though I personally may disagree with some of them. I also believe the individual is responsible his safety.

    I believe the one thing which seems to have been missed is, the government cannot protect you. They just don't have the resources, and to take it another step when we accept their "protection" we often lose a small portion of our Liberty.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

    Benjamin Franklin

    Recidivist, I read your post of April 1 at 9:38PM. Originally I was not going to respond, however, after a little thought I felt it was intended to be an insult so here it is, I have to draw the conclusion, from reference to fishing the Texas border, cigars and being unfit was directed at myself. I am certain you drew a couple of those conclusions from my avatar or whatever the thing is called. Well let me assure you there is some fine fishing to be had along the lower Texas coast. We have the longest stretch of beach in the U.S. with no developement, 85 miles of it from South Padre to Corpus. You would enjoy it if you ever try it. Heck I would be happy for you to come over for a visit and check it out, so you can experience the area. I admit the avatar is not very flattering. That is why I chose it. However, since you seem to have concerned yourself with my condition and felt you must post it, let me assure you I am healthy and my height:weight proportion is well within the bounds it should be. As far as the running, I do a couple miles every other day as part of my exercise routine. I exercise so I may continue to stay active and to do what I enjoy most, shallow water fly fish. Now I will address the cigars, you bet I smoke one or two a week, and have for years. I smoke good ones and I enjoy them. I don't use any other type tobacco, and I don't smoke around kids or anyone who it bothers. I think if I want to enjoy an occasional cigar, I am old enough to make that decision. If you have any question about my age, click on my profile. Oh, one other thing I feel needs to be addressed. Bragging, I have never bragged about anything in any of my post on this board. Never felt the need. Any experience I may have mentioned was simply to support my statement. All of them are verifiable. In concluding this let me thank you so much for your concern about my health, but I should be around and active for another 15 or so years.

    Guys have a wonderful day. [smiley=usa2.gif]
  18. Gonefishin

    Gonefishin Since retiring, I live to fish!

    The mention of hit probability with LE aroused my curosity. The agency I came from has a much higher ratio than was quoted in this thread. There are many factors which influence the outcome of any deadly force encounter. The following link is an interesting read, and from a reputable organization. I am suggesting it not as a who shot who article, but as a source of how many different factors come into play. The info is 7 years old, so maybe with changes in training technique, things have improved. All of this is something to consider in civilian carry and use of force. And yes, I know LE has killed some people who should not have been killed, that is also addressed in this article and can happen in the civilian world as well. Check it out.


    Thanks for bringing this 2nd amendment business up, it has helped me kill a week during which my wife made me come back from south Texas and home because of Easter.
  19. topnative2

    topnative2 Well-Known Member

    Great article........loved the ACLU tricky stats.

    There are PERPS that try to jerk your chain by making furtive movments and sometimes they get killed ...stupid is as stupid does

    It is a serious business carrying a weapon never mind doing it as a living..... sticking a weapon in an ear is an eye opening revelation... not so cool anymore..... nor is trying to hold onto your weapon.......

    The mind is the best weapon.