2005 Yamaha TLRD 40 will not idle

Discussion in 'Outboard Maintenance' started by 8loco, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. 8loco

    8loco Well-Known Member

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    Went fishing today. As usual stop to gas up and add oil to the resivor. Idle out for about 2 miles with no issues then jump it up on plane and run about 2 miles, then the motor just idles itself down and shuts off. I checked the bulb, it was still hard. Now the motor will either immedietly die or run for 20 seconds and then die. It's a tiller, I can't even get into forward to see if it would run at a higher RPM. Any suggestions? Plan on taking it to a repair shop tomorrow if I can't figure it out.
     
  2. Swamp

    Swamp I Love microskiff.com!

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    Sounds like a fuel supply issue to me. Check the inline filter if it has one. That is a carburated engine right? Check the hose that runs to the carb and make sure it is not pulling air, doubtful considering the age but with the e-fuels if it's rubber it's suspect. Buy an OEM manual, you will need it eventually anyway. Drain the carb bowl (catch the fluid if you can so you can look for water or debris). Remove and dismantle the carb to clean. Oh and my personal favorite that I hate to admit to is to check the fuel line connection to the motor. I've "almost" had it connected correctly and the bulb was nice and hard but only a trickle of fuel was getting into the system.

    The fuel line connection is the easiest but most embarrassing. A clogged fuel filter is very common. The carb is probably the most likely, a little more trouble but doable. You may have to remove other "stuff" to pull the carb(s). Again get a manual.

    These are principles for just about any "small" engine. The fact that it will fire up is good.

    Swamp
     

  3. 8loco

    8loco Well-Known Member

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    What is the going rate to have the carbs cleaned at a marine shop?
     
  4. 8loco

    8loco Well-Known Member

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    Turns out it was water in the gas tank. I think I will start driving to a marina and buying e free gas.
     
  5. Swamp

    Swamp I Love microskiff.com!

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    let me guess, it clogged up the filter and/or got into the carb? Glad it was not a major issue. While getting ethanol free gas is a great idea use a fuel stabilizer anyway or if you can't get ethanol free definitely use it. Don't let your gas sit forever, even "good" gas will get water in it. Like you need another excuse to go out and burn some gas right? ;) There is also a debate whether or not keeping your tanks full helps with avoiding condensation. Down here, I'm not so sure. Further north I'd buy that. Can't hurt though.
     
  6. 8loco

    8loco Well-Known Member

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    My skiff gets used twice a week and I only have a 15 gallon tank. So new gas is constanly flowing through it, not quite sure how that much water got into the tank. Regardless the yearly service needed to be completed and the carbs needed a ultrasonic good cleaning. All is well with the boat and I already bought fuel stabilizer and plan on switching to e free gas.
     
  7. Creek Runner

    Creek Runner Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't, actually makes it worse.

    Get a good Fuel water Separator, Yamaha or Racor would be my choice. I prefer the Racor because of the clear bowl easy to see if you have water in the gas. Also make sure your stabilizer is alcohol free. Yamaha Ring Free would be my suggestion.
     
  8. Brett

    Brett > PRO STAFF <

    Biggest cause of water contamination in ethanol gas is leakage from top of tank fittings.
    Vents and fills on the boat allow leakage due to gravity and the direct pressures created
    by hosing off the boat, wind driven spray and when running in seas big enough to drive water
    into the overflow vent on the side of the hull.


    previous post: Fuel Tank Leaks
     
  9. Swamp

    Swamp I Love microskiff.com!

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    LOL! I did say there was a debate! Let me guess which camp you are in? :) Me I'm not sure. I think a dead empty plastic tank should not condensate readily. Aluminum or a half empty compared to dead full? Well like I said, I'm not sure. I will however agree with Brett that all of the causes he mentioned are real and to it's best to avoid them. One nice thing about portable tanks is they are easy to check for water and easier to clean out now and again.
     
  10. DuckNut

    DuckNut Brandon, FL

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    Swampy - I am in Brett's camp. But I can tell you with certainty that if you have air in a can it will condensate before one that has no air. The air will change temperature much more readily than liquid.

    Take a cold half full can and put it in the sun to warm up and there will be condensation in it. Although it will be so minute that it won't be an issue.

    My father in laws van sat for a little over a year with a quarter tank of gas and after I got the battery charged the van ran. It ran rough but far better than I would have imagined. Ran fine after I filled it up.
     
  11. Brett

    Brett > PRO STAFF <

    I found from my own experience, that a garage kept boat
    with a portable fuel tank, fill/vent properly protected, has no ethanol problems.

    Prevent gravity/pressure leaks of water into the tank
    and the fuel doesn't become phase separated.

    previous post: Vent Cover

    If you really want a scare, do a seal test on your fuel fill.
    Open the fill, wipe the inside of the neck and hose dry.
    Close the cap and then spray the fill cover with a hose
    just like when you clean your hull. Then pop the cap
    and look at the water droplets inside the neck and fuel hose.

                                     :'(
     
  12. Swamp

    Swamp I Love microskiff.com!

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    Ducknut, I think I misunderstood you.  I though you meant keeping a tank full made it worse.  The thing I'm not so sure about is if a tank buried under the deck of a boat will have time to cool below the dewpoint before the temp comes up again (down here in SW FL at least).  Maybe it could once or twice a year but then the dewpoint and humidity is usually low too so maybe not even then.  Further north, maybe even a hundred miles or so or further inland, I could see it happening readily.  I'm not a physicist so...

    All of this makes me wonder if condensation is a factor then we may compound the problem by agitating the tank (like by driving to the ramp) before any condensate has a chance to vaporize again and it gets sloshed into the fuel.

    I agree with Brett that if you can, then garage kept is best and that other factors are usually much more of a problem.

    As far as the van is concerned, that may have had to do more with stale vs fresh gas than anything (been there done that too).  Now if it had unstabilized fuel:eek:il mix in it like our boats then I think you might still be cursing at it. Cleaning out a vehicle tank sucks.
     
  13. Creek Runner

    Creek Runner Well-Known Member

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    Yep I'm in that camp; of not keeping your tank full if you run Ethanol fuel (and it's not because of condensation), and to keep your tank full if your run non ethanol fuel.  Let me say that I don't have an issue with water in my gas in any of my boats, which have 6 gallon, 18 gallon, and 400 gallon tanks. But I use my boats regularly and none of them get ethanol fuel except the 6 gallon tank in my little boat. However I work on boats for a living and every year when springs hits I get half a dozen boats with water in their fuel, do to condensation and or ethanol fuel. And yes all of the points that Brett mentioned are valid, and cause water in the fuel which is about the other half a dozen boats that I work on that have water in the fuel (99.9% fuel vent). Also keep this in mind most people don't believe things until it happens to them. If what you been doing works for you then great keep doing it, if you have had a problem then might want to change it up. :)

    Stay safe
    Tight lines
     
  14. cutrunner

    cutrunner Cert. Yamaha technician

    Your problem is very apparent. The only clear solution i see that you have is to convert your motor to run on water instead of gas.
     
  15. Swamp

    Swamp I Love microskiff.com!

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    CreekRunner, I'd be interested in hearing why you feel a half empty tank of e-fuel is better than a full one. I could see the logic of wanting to use it all up before refilling. Like I said I'm still open to arguments one way or another.
     
  16. cutrunner

    cutrunner Cert. Yamaha technician

    I second creek runner

    Reason being is that you have to remember tht te tank is vented to atmosphere.
    Wether theres alot of room for air in the tank or very little, its still open to the atmosphere, 24/7 day and night.
    Like rust, it never sleeps..
    Either way are all better reasons to try and use the boat.
     
  17. Swamp

    Swamp I Love microskiff.com!

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    Yes I get that and I agree for sure, the fresher the better. But why is a half empty tank better than full?
     
  18. cutrunner

    cutrunner Cert. Yamaha technician

    I wouldnt say half as much as i would say 1/4.
    What i believe it really comes down to is lets say one gallon of fuel can absorb and make one pint of water (just throwin numbers out here, nothing real)
    50 gal = potential for 50 pints
    10 gal= potential for 10 pints
     
  19. Swamp

    Swamp I Love microskiff.com!

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    Okay, so what you are saying is the volume does not really facilitate or restrict condensation but the greater the volume of fuel the more water it can potentially absorb because the amount of water absorbed upon equilibrium is a set fuel:water ratio. Right? I can see that logic. Not sure if that is what does or does not happen, or rather how long that equilibrium takes to happen (five days, weeks, months, or years?), but it certainly sounds plausible to me.
     
  20. Creek Runner

    Creek Runner Well-Known Member

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    Swamp let me 1st say I am no physicist but I did do good in science in school, lol! ;D However I am a Master tech for Yamaha products and Master tech for Volvo Penta. I'm also certified in Mercury/Mercusier, use to be in Suzuki, use to be in OMC when they were in business, and have attended one school from BMC. The last Volvo Penta school I was in they actually had a gasoline/fuel nerd come in and talk to us for about 2 hours. So let me explain what I got from that mental enema and also from my experience as a marine tech.. Volume does facilitate and restrict condensation, that's why I said if I was running non-ethanol fuel  I would keep my fuel tank full. However the problem is that ethanol fuel is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs moisture from the air, not just condensation formation inside the tank. This is what Cut was talking about saying that 10 gallon would produce 10 pints and 50 gallons would produce 50 pints of water. These are made up numbers for example purposes only. In a small boat with a 6 gallon tank that is ran at least twice a month you will never experience what we are talking about. That's why most people on this forum discount what I'm referring to after all its Microskiff.com not Offshore only. But the problem does exists and it's very real in larger boats, and when I say larger 30-35 gallon tanks are probably half of the ones I see with water contamination. Take a glass jar, fill it about 3/4 full of ethanol fuel (not treated) leave the lid off and put a fan on it, come back 4 hours later and look at the results.

    Now let's keep examining a little further. The more ethanol fuel you have the more moisture it will absorb, but the more fuel you have the more moisture the fuel can hold before phase separation occurs. So again for example purposes only; you have 10 gallons of fuel it will hold let say 2 pints of water before phase separation begins, at which point water will begin to collect in the bottom of the tank, it doesn't stop there though every single bit of moisture it absorbs after phase separation begins goes to the bottom of the tank because the fuel is already holding as much moisture as it can. So there is no end to how much water can accumulate. Imagine having 80, 100, or 150 gallons.

    Also just so there is no misunderstanding, I no longer work on boats for a full time Job. I do however still attend manufactures schools through various friends who own dealers.  I only work on a select few tournament guys (around a dozen) boats and I have about a dozen service contracts with some other clients for which I basically always make sure there boat is ready to run when they step on board sometimes that's only once a year. Other than that there are a few other jobs I will do as a favor to my regular clients. I did however work on boats full time when my dad owned his dealership and also was the service manager for 2 other dealers, and worked directly for Yamaha before leaving the industry full time. I have worked on everything from aluminum Jon boats to 100' sport fishers. I currently run a 14' stumpknocker, 19' STV, 25' Shearwater, and a 44' Formula. So I have a vast knowledge of all size boats, motors, and manufactures.
    I do not claim to know more than anybody else does, I only speak of knowledge learned from schooling and 1st hand experience of operating and working on boats, like I said in my previous post if what you or anybody for that matter has been working then great keep doing what you doing and catch some fish. :)

    Sorry for such a long post.